State Champ Radio From the Desk Of
When Tunji Balogun took over Def Jam in January 2022 after a career working with stars such as Kendrick Lamar at Interscope; Khalid, Bryson Tiller, H.E.R. and Wizkid at RCA; and Normani at his own Keep Cool imprint, he says he found a label with “a lot of question marks. There was a lot of instability. It seemed like there were a lot of different perspectives.”
In the five years prior to Balogun’s tenure, Def Jam had been in a state of near-continual upheaval. After Steve Bartels exited as CEO in 2018, Eminem manager and Shady Records co-founder Paul Rosenberg took the job but lasted only two years. Jeffrey Harleston, executive vp of business affairs/general counsel of the label’s parent company, Universal Music Group (UMG), ran Def Jam on an interim basis — which coincided with the pandemic — until Balogun was hired. By that time, nearly a decade had passed since someone with an A&R background had led the company.
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Not surprisingly, Balogun inherited a label in serious need of reinvention. “It felt like there was an overreliance on the existing roster and not as much of a focus on what comes next,” the A&R veteran and former rapper says. “The current roster was strong, especially at that time. You still had Kanye [West], and [Justin] Bieber was releasing a lot of music; Jhené [Aiko] had a big album. But the reality is, you always need that next wave of artists that’s going to continue turning the page, and I put the focus on that from day one.”
Balogun quickly set to work reshaping the roster, signing Muni Long, Coco Jones and Armani White while expanding into dancehall with Masicka and into Afrobeats with Adekunle Gold and Odumodublvck, in partnership with Native Records. Some of it has paid off: Muni Long and Jones were nominated for best new artist at the Grammy Awards in 2023 and 2024, respectively, and each won for best R&B performance in subsequent years, a first for any label in that category.
The plaque commemorating Childish Gambino’s “This Is America” going two-times platinum reminds Balogun “of one of the most unique and impactful records I’ve been lucky enough to play a small part in bringing to the world.”
DeSean McClinton-Holland
But the path forward, which Balogun says includes “being deliberate about giving our artists resources and nurturing them,” has had its setbacks. Def Jam’s market share has declined for the past three years — a downturn that began before Balogun arrived — and sat at 0.65% at the end of 2023, according to Luminate. And the label that once released culture-shaping music by LL COOL J, Public Enemy, Jay-Z, West and Rihanna had no chart-topping albums.
There was more upheaval as a result of the restructuring and layoffs at UMG in the first few months of the year, which led to Balogun reporting to Republic co-founder/CEO Monte Lipman and Def Jam’s urban promotions and public relations staff moving into the new Republic Corps shared-services division. “It was difficult for us, just as I’m sure it was difficult for any other label to have to go through” layoffs, he says, adding, “I actually think we are more focused and more aligned and more set up for success now.”
Despite these changes, Balogun’s reset is gaining momentum and market share is on the upswing. After Muni Long’s “Hrs & Hrs” reached No. 16 on the Billboard Hot 100 in 2022, her latest single, “Made for Me,” reached No. 20 on the March 9 chart and became her second No. 1 hit on R&B/ Hip-Hop Airplay, where it has reigned for five weeks. That will lead into her forthcoming debut album, part of a slate of releases this year from Jones, Aiko, Vince Staples, Big Sean, Alessia Cara, Wale, LL COOL J and Chuck D, among others.
As Def Jam celebrates 40 years of history, Balogun says the label is driving forward once again. “I want to get to a place where we’re not defined by nostalgia; where nostalgia is just a part of the magic,” he says. “I do think we’re heading there. But it’s a heavy task.”
Balogun says the boombox is “a reminder of my musical roots and the magical era when Def Jam began to change the world.”
DeSean McClinton-Holland
Def Jam is 40 years old. What does that mean to you?
Def Jam, to me, has always stood for forward-thinking, cutting-edge Black music. And I’m careful to say “Black music” and not just “Black artists” because if you have something special like a Beastie Boys or eventually a [Justin] Bieber, it belongs on the label as well. It was the first label that felt like [it had] a point of view. If you plot the course of the label over time, there has always been risk-taking signings that reflect where music is going. The goal is to continue that tradition and bring it into the future. My entire career, most of my successes have been a little bit left of center: riskier signings, artists that have their own point of view.
When you accepted the role, what was your strategy, and how did it change once you got to Def Jam?
My plan was to look under the hood, meet every single artist and employee and have genuine, one-on-one conversations with them. I found that there was a lot of instability. There wasn’t a focus on the new, which is everything I saw when I worked with Jimmy Iovine, John Janick, Peter Edge.
Did the label need a cultural reinvention?
Yes. I am a walking reset button for Def Jam. That’s not to disrespect anyone who was here before me. It was more about bringing [the label] into my world and the way that I move. I try to be a reflection of what’s happening in the creative community. That’s always going to be my superpower: I’m tapped in with the producers and the artists. Def Jam has always been the culture’s label, the most down-to-earth label, that feels like a reflection of the people. I want to reestablish those values.
How do you balance that with the need for hits?
I want more hits, but to get to that point, you need to plant multiple seeds and allow them to flourish. You can’t just put [a song] on MTV and the radio and it’s over. There needs to be 100 discovery points, a digital story, an [in real life] story, an artist proposition, a song that’s special, and all those things need to align in one moment. When I started, I told Lucian [Grainge] that I’m a long-term guy and I’m willing to wait for the moment. I’m not pressed to chase numbers, chase the algorithm, chase the hot new thing of the week. I’m going to wait until I find something really special that makes my skin tingle, and then I’m going to go for it.
“My small but mighty jewelry collection”: his wedding band and his half of matching Cartier rings that he and his wife wear. His mother gave him the chain with the charm and matching ring when Balogun was in Nigeria “reconnecting with my roots. She literally took the chain off her neck and put it around mine.” A few months later, she “hooked me up to complete the look” with the ring. He wears it on his left pinky and the Cartier on his right.
DeSean McClinton-Holland
How has the UMG restructure affected you and Def Jam?
The biggest changes are in radio promotion, where now we work with Republic’s rhythm and pop staffs. We retained our urban team, which now services the whole group. Since this is Def Jam, the vast majority of these records are going to start in that urban radio space, so it actually, so far, has been really seamless. The other major change is in the publicity space, where we now share resources with the Republic Corps team. From the inside looking out, it has been pretty smooth, and there hasn’t really been much of a drastic change. We’re very much continuing on that path that we’ve been on since I got here.
What’s an example of how the new structure has worked?
A great example of the synergy has been the work that we’ve done with Muni Long’s “Made For Me” record, which our team got started. We got it to No. 1 at R&B and urban radio right as the transition was happening, and then we seamlessly passed the baton to [Republic’s] Gary Spangler and his team, and they got it to No. 1 at rhythm and now they’re building at [adult top 40] and top 40 radio. The creative and the energy and the ideas are still coming from Def Jam, but once we reach certain thresholds, we collaborate with the larger team. That song is still going from strength to strength. It’ll end up as one of the biggest R&B songs of the year, and it’ll set up Muni’s album. It feels like we have more tools in terms of artist development, and now we can approach things from different angles, depending on what the most effective strategy is.
One of the consequences of planting seeds, as you put it, is that Def Jam’s market share has been dropping. Are you worried you’re not going to have the time and space to watch these seeds grow?
No. It doesn’t change the conversation I had with Lucian at the beginning. That’s something that everyone that I deal with understands. I’m also not a dictator who thinks he knows everything. I’m willing to learn and grow, and for me, this [restructuring] is another opportunity to grow. There are things that I’m excited to work on with some of the other labels now that there’s a possibility of doing things together. I’m already moving like that.
Def Jam scored best new artist Grammy nominees in each of the past two years. What does that signify for you?
We are making progress. But every single person who I’ve spoken to who has gone through this [experience] has said it’s probably going to take three, probably four or five years. We’re at the beginning of year three. My biggest fear was, “Am I going to be able to go in there and break new acts?” Now I know we’re able to do it. Every time I’ve bet on myself, I’ve found success. I’m confident in that, and I’m confident in my team and in our artists. We’re already on an incline, so I don’t see how that stops.
How do you want the next 40 years of Def Jam’s artists to define the label?
I want Def Jam to be the destination for the next generation of global Black music. That is my mission statement. In many ways, it reflects what the label has always been, but it brings in all the new scenes and sounds and strains of music — everything from U.K. R&B, to Nigerian drill, to amapiano from South Africa, to a really special country act from Missouri, the next incredible lyricist from New York or the next really special female MC from Atlanta. All these different worlds and sounds need to exist within this label. I truly believe that we are the only major label that’s synonymous with pushing Black music forward.
This story originally appeared in the May 11, 2024, issue of Billboard.
As a former executive at music companies in Singapore, Hong Kong, New York and Los Angeles, Wendy Ong certainly has the globe-trotting credentials to help a roster of music artists including Lana Del Rey, Ellie Goulding and Noah Cyrus navigate an increasingly global business. But Ong charted the flight path she took to her current role as global co-president/chief marketing officer of the artist management and publishing company TaP Music largely on her own because, she says, mentors for an Asian American/Pacific Islander (AAPI) music executive were virtually nonexistent then.
As a result, Ong — who was raised in Malaysia and Singapore and worked at BMG, Arista, RCA, the Metropolitan Opera, EMI, Capitol, Interscope and Roc Nation — says she makes it a priority to be one herself, particularly for Asians and Asian Americans. Her mentorship has been aided by her participation in Gold House — a community of Asian Pacific entrepreneurs, creatives and other leaders — after, she says, she was invited to one of the organization’s dinners “by accident.” She adds that when opportunity presents itself, “it depends on what you do with it.”
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Ong sat down with Billboard to discuss the continued importance of music festivals, the work of Gold House and the promise of artificial intelligence (AI), among other topics.
Lana Del Rey returned to Coachella this year as a headliner. Do festival bookings still move the needle?
When you’re strategic about it, it allows you to make getting into smaller markets cost-effective. It’s hard to do proper global touring these days, and even in the U.S., festivals allow an artist to complement their overall touring strategy. From the TaP perspective, it’s still a very key component, especially for developing artists. It’s the same reason that collaborations work because it’s crossing over to other artists’ audiences. And not just for young people. I’m supposed to be the jaded music executive, but I’m not. The Justice set [at Coachella] blew me away. I actually went and checked immediately [to see if they’re touring] because I wanted to see it again.
Prior to Coachella, what other major wins has TaP scored in the past 12 months?
Ellie [Goulding] is one of the most multifaceted artists anywhere. She had a No. 1 single and album last year [with “Miracle” featuring Calvin Harris and fifth full-length Higher Than Heaven] in the same week in the U.K. That was stunning. And Caroline Polachek’s album [Desire, I Want To Turn Into You, which debuted at No. 9 on Billboard’s Top Album Sales chart]. I love that Caroline and Mookie Singerman, who manages her, have been together since the beginning of [Polachek’s former band] Chairlift. There’s something to be said for loyalty. Sometimes when an artist gets bigger, they feel they need to switch up their teams. They are the CEO of their own company, so they need to make tough calls sometimes. But it’s nice to see those that remain loyal.
After Ong spearheaded a Fifty Shades of Grey classical compilation at EMI, she says author E L James’ lawyer sent her a cease-and-desist notice. “I flew to London,” she says, and successfully proposed releasing Fifty Shades of Grey: The Classical Album, which put her on the radar of radio departments at Capitol when programmers called to say, “ ‘We heard you released a BDSM classical album.’ ”
Yasara Gunawardena
How are label layoffs affecting management?
Significantly. I always look to partner with our major labels in the best possible way, and when things are up in the air, it makes it very challenging to understand how much support we’re going to have. The company that [TaP co-CEOs] Ben [Mawson] and Ed [Millett] have built is very much on the ethos of self-sufficiency. Going back to Lana, at the beginning of her career, they had a lot of pushback. She signed to Universal Germany because nobody believed in her. And that was and still is today a big takeaway for how we function as a company. We try to do as much for our artists as we can without overly relying on third parties, whether it’s a label, a brand, a social [platform] or a [digital service provider]. We need that agency to be able to make a difference.
What does that entail today?
All anybody wants to talk about right now is superfans. And it’s such a wake-up call. Fans want that close, direct relationship with the artist, and we were all slow in realizing that we need to take control of this relationship. We, as a management company, have made big strides in CRM [customer relationship management]. We have someone employed specifically at our company to do CRM. We’re platform agnostic, whether that’s OpenStage or Community or Laylo. What is important for us is to be able to take back the data. I say “data,” but that’s the fans. Artists need to be able to talk to their fans directly, and I think we’re leading the charge on the management side. It’s a testament to how [much] we value our artists’ fans.
Ong’s great-grandmother, with whom she lived in Malaysia while attending preschool, gave her this pendant.
Yasara Gunawardena
You’ve talked about not having a mentor in the industry. When you switched to management, was it even more apparent?
It was glaring. I wish that wasn’t my answer, by the way. I wish I could say that, “Oh, yeah. So-and-so really lifted me up and helped me out so much.” Younger people, whether it’s on social media or in real life, often reach out to me, and I do my best to play whatever small part I can because I think that my path may have been a little less rocky if I had more guidance early in my career. And the very reason I had no mentors is because there weren’t enough people that looked like me when I was coming up in the industry. Now there’s K-pop, so that has changed things in the best possible way.
How does Gold House encourage more mentorship and visibility of the AAPI community in music?
With Gold House, I think it’s the first time that I became a part of something greater for the AAPI community. It makes it easier to give back and to spotlight minority communities like ours. I’m also very proud to be part of the Gold House Music Accelerator program. The spotlight K-pop has put on the AAPI community is wonderful, but being a judge on the Gold House Music Accelerator program helps to shine a light on other types of artists, whether it’s indie-rock or R&B.
Why has K-pop become an umbrella term in the United States for all Asian music right now?
Because we’re dealing with the greater media that is not Asian, it eclipses all these other interesting artists and music that’s coming out from countries like Indonesia and the Philippines and Taiwan. Nowhere else in the world would you put South Asians, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Filipinos, Indonesians all under one umbrella. It makes no sense outside of America. We have to do it in this country because we’re all minorities and we can have a bigger voice if we band together. It’s a challenge, though, because K-pop has changed so much of what we think pop music looks like. So now that we have a sliver of an opening, I hope that we get to demonstrate through Gold House efforts, for example, other types of music made by Asians.
A sweatshirt embroidered with the face of Ong’s recently deceased dog, Patches, whom she rescued 16 years ago on the island of Tobago and “was my rock through and through.”
Yasara Gunawardena
What genre would you like to see gain prominence?
I’m so excited about South Asian Desi music. It is so much fun and joy and rhythm and bass. That joyousness is similar to how I view a lot of Latin music. It’s inevitable that a Desi artist is going to break through, and I’m excited for that to find its way into America.
TaP has its publishing, philanthropic, fashion and sports divisions, but is there another sector you would love to see the company tackle in the future?
I am very excited and a huge advocate for all the positive changes that AI can bring. But I also have that personality of an early adopter. I think that in two years’ time the music industry is going to look extremely different — maybe more so on the publishing side because that’s where it’s the most scary. When things are challenging, that is when opportunity comes. It’s whether we can find a way to leverage it.
Outside of new music, what are you looking forward to this year?
The Gold Music Alliance. It was really encouraging when [the organization] had the chance to do the event around the Grammys this year. It was the first experience for me as a member of the Recording Academy to realize that there was interest in growing the AAPI membership base. Because I don’t think we’re very represented.
Yasara Gunawardena
Do you think that will change with this year’s nominations?
In 2023, two AAPI trustees were elected to the academy’s national board of trustees. I think that is a sign that we are getting more representation. And I want to use my platform to encourage more AAPIs to become members of the Recording Academy. I know K-pop dominates in terms of consumption, but recognition is what I’m speaking about. I would be really excited to see a non-fan-voted award with K-pop. We should be represented not just in Billboard sales charts, but also in critical acclaim. Once again, I hope that K-pop forges the path for other types of Asian music.
The academy added a best African music performance category this year. Would you like to see a similar addition for K-pop?
How amazing would that be, but it’s a double-edged sword. Like, why isn’t K-pop just part of pop? It’s [like asking] why is there a best actor and a best actress at the Oscars? Sometimes I think it’s necessary because we can’t [bestow] the right amount of acclaim and recognition by putting everyone in the same bucket. We’ll see more changes due to AI than we’ll see anything else. I wish technological advances could help advance this type of conversation — maybe that’s the challenge.
This article originally appeared in the April 27, 2024 issue of Billboard.
On Feb. 5, 300 workers from North America’s music industry gathered at the inaugural Music Sustainability Summit to discuss the impact of climate change on their business. “People were always asking where to start, what to do and how to do it,” says Amy Morrison, co-founder and president of the Music Sustainability Alliance, which organized the symposium. “We saw a need to bring people together in order to not duplicate work, to share best practices and to spotlight the good work everyone is doing.”
Morrison formed the 501(c)(3) nonprofit MSA with co-founder Mike Martin during the pandemic and near the end of her 23-year run as senior vp of marketing at Concerts West/AEG. While semiretired, she still consults for the company and continues running tour marketing for The Rolling Stones, including their North American Hackney Diamonds trek this summer. The touring shutdown enabled her to complete a certificate program in sustainability at Presidio Graduate School, and she now dedicates most of her working hours to the MSA. (The alliance is currently collaborating with a nonprofit fundraising consultant to raise money to pay staff.)
The MSA’s mandate is the creation of “climate-focused professional resources and community,” Morrison explains. “It’s a relatively simple concept, but nobody ever saw the need for it. The downtime we had to reflect during COVID was helpful, and the timing now couldn’t be better to accelerate and lift everyone up together to do this.”
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The Music Sustainability Summit will be an annual gathering that takes place in Los Angeles — where the MSA, like Morrison, is based — on the day after the Grammy Awards, and MSA will organize a number of year-round initiatives and track environmental regulations that will affect the industry, with the two most pertinent being truck emissions and phasing out single-use plastics. It also offers a music-industry resource guide.
“It still blows my mind that I get to work with the Stones,” Morrison says. “Living in L.A., this poster beautifully marries the SoCal vibe and the greatest rock’n’roll band in the world.”
Maggie Shannon
By mid-April, the MSA plans to have three to five working groups dedicated to promoting sustainability practices in the industry. Each will share solutions and actionable recommendations. In collaboration with the Eller College of Management, MSA is also conducting an analysis of the economic impacts of extreme weather on the live industry and how environmental regulations will affect touring practices. Morrison is also a member of the advisory group for the Sustainable Production in Entertainment Certification, which is being developed by the U.S. Green Building Council-Los Angeles in partnership with experts to develop SPEC’s green certification program for workers across the entertainment industry.
Beginning in May, MSA will hold a series of webinars that will focus on merchandise, food choice impact, easy ways to green events, regulations and incentives, among other topics. Plans are also underway to launch quarterly member happy hours in L.A. and New York.
“I oversimplify things a lot, which I think is a gift and a curse,” Morrison says, “but it makes me not scared and it motivates me to try things because it’s like, ‘We can do this.’”
It’s often said that despite the music industry having a very small impact on climate change, it has an outsize influence on the culture that can be leveraged. What are your thoughts on that?
I agree as a general statement. I feel it’s really important, though, that we have our house in order and that the industry can walk the walk, speak with confidence and be legit and authentic in getting that message out. I think that supports artists who want to speak out as well because they have the confidence that the industry is behind them.
The MSA wants to create that confidence. The mission is to have a net-zero music industry by 2050 [with] lots of milestones along the way.
“This clock commemorates The Concert of a Lifetime, Simon & Garfunkel’s 1993 residency at [what is now] The Theater at Madison Square Garden. I grew up listening to them, and being a part of this historic reunion was a career highlight.”
Maggie Shannon
What initiatives is the MSA working on?
We’ve been working on a Get Out the Vote working group. There’s a lot of interest, and it involves everything from message targeting, deciding on markets and the intention of activating younger people to vote [with consideration for] the climate. We’re also talking about how to use the channels we have: What can a venue do to get the word out? What can a promoter do? Then the campaign needs to be created for them to actually have something to share. It could even be picking a city that needs the impact and finding a local artist there [to get involved] who could be just as meaningful as getting a superstar to do it. We’re working with folks that create campaigns, along with political experts.
You work in the touring industry. What initiatives do you have in that sector?
In the next couple of months, we’re launching a campaign for [tours] to have one less truck. It’s about flipping the narrative that [the goal] is no longer having the biggest tours with the most trucks — it’s about still putting on a beautiful show, but with fewer trucks. That’s something we can measure over time. It’s a ways down the road from launching. We’re also working on courses for worker education on how to be green, like a certification you get in how to do your job in a green way. We need operational change, and it only comes from education.
“Running the marketing for a festival of this magnitude with these artists was an incredible experience. I got to draw on my touring experience while learning new things.”
Maggie Shannon
What would a curriculum like that teach?
It could be how to set up composting backstage, or how to go down your supply chain and source items, or how to measure energy use. Really basic stuff, starting on the production side.
Because production has the biggest impact?
Yeah, and it’s easier to adopt. It’s important for systemic change that the people who are doing the work, who are really making operations hum, understand the work. And if their bosses or management see the value in funding this type of program, then it’s also coming from the top.
How do you see the music industry generally becoming greener?
I see it in the expansion of departments, with more people being hired and more resources getting put behind it. [Live Nation’s touring program] Green Nation is starting to really empower its production teams to lead in the green space, and they’re putting green coordinators out on the road. It’s not like, “The runner or the [production assistant] can do it.” There has been a shift in the acknowledgment that this is actually a job.
The MSA is working with big companies that compete with each other. What has that been like?
We’ve found that in the production vendor world, it’s a no-brainer. They’re all game to be on the same calls and do things together. At the summit, the panel with the [sustainability leads from AEG, Live Nation, ASM Global and Oak View Group] was a good start. A secret mission of mine is to find a project for the four of them to work on. Maybe to find a city where they all have a property — I’m sure there’s more than one — and work on [climate-minded] infrastructure together. It can be a small thing to do as proof of concept. I think the working groups will bring some of that because a lot of our role is to facilitate, convene and set the table for people.
A friend gifted Morrison this Al Hirschfeld drawing of Grateful Dead frontman Jerry Garcia. “As a longtime Deadhead and Hirschfeld fan, it makes me smile to see Jerry doing what he loves.”
Maggie Shannon
I think part of the road map for us is to come up with some science-based, peer-reviewed recommendation to take to the C suite and say, “Here are a couple of projects that maybe if all the venues work together on, this is the impact it could have, and all it will cost you is X, Y or Z.”
I can see how having such options would be useful for busy people who don’t know where to start.
Maybe I’m dreaming, but they really should all work together on this, and I think they will, with the right projects and the right impact.
Climate change can feel so overwhelming. How do you avoid existential dread and stay in a place of progress and optimism?
I’m a half-full gal. I am optimistic, and I’m fed by support, good work and successes. The summit was amazing. I couldn’t have dreamed of it to be any better. And everyone still showed up during a crazy rainstorm. There were a lot of years of banging the head against the wall around all this, but change is happening. So I’m not driven by fear — I’m driven by making a difference.
This story will appear in the March 30, 2024, issue of Billboard.
When Condé Nast announced in January that it was folding the nearly 30-year-old music website Pitchfork into GQ, music fans and journalists decried the downsizing of a revered media outlet that gave voice to a diverse array of music genres, styles and artists that it praised and panned with its decimal system rating scale.
The shake-up also resulted in the departure of another woman from a leadership position in the music industry. Puja Patel, whom Condé Nast named Pitchfork’s first woman editor-in-chief in 2019, was among those laid off after presiding over an expansion both in staff and coverage. A veteran of Spin, which she also ran, and The Village Voice, Patel — the daughter of a Zimbabwean father and Indian mother — advocated for “more conversational and accessible writing,” ensuring that the publication’s tagline of being “the most trusted voice in music” rang true for a wider range of readers. She also empowered her staff to shape that coverage and widen its focus from the once-male-dominated space of indie-rock to include, for instance, regional rap, Latin and urbano music, while also supporting indie’s current generation of stars such as Phoebe Bridgers, Mitski, Adrianne Lenker and HAIM.
In her first interview since leaving Pitchfork, Patel, 38, discusses her impact on the brand and why music journalism is here to stay.
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What were your goals as Pitchfork’s editor-in-chief?
I really knew what I wanted to do with it when I went there, and I think having some security of vision and a strong sense of the legacy of a publication — being able to keep that alive while also growing the thing — is the biggest task of anyone taking on an institution like Pitchfork. But I was mostly excited about taking an incredibly talented staff and [helping build] an even more expansively minded staff.
“I would hang out in my uncle’s records and tapes store while visiting my mom’s family in India. I grew up influenced by the mixtapes he’d make and send to her.”
Krista Schlueter
How did you see the impact of those changes during your time there?
The work of changing a place that is so beloved and such an institution is slow and purposeful. Often when someone new comes in, people expect some kind of bombshell explosive reinvention. The harder and more meaningful version of that is keeping the best parts and changing the parts that can be changed. The staff is very obviously more diverse than it has ever been. The taste on the site — it has gotten weirder and more engaged with popular music. And the readership has also become a lot more inclusive.
What were your ultimate goals for Pitchfork’s growth and evolution?
I wanted Pitchfork to be the destination for the discerning music listener — a place where you could discover an artist, listen to our staff debate and contextualize new releases; hear from the musicians themselves; see them live at one of our shows; and become part of our community online and in person. It was important to me to be deliberate about expanding the scope of our editorial while also advocating for brand expansions in audio, sponsored activations and consumer growth.
“It takes so much work and curation to build a unique festival,” Patel says of Pitchfork’s annual Chicago event. “The lanyards remind me of some of my favorite live-music moments and seeing our vision come to life.”
Krista Schlueter
Indie music is currently more diverse and dominated by women. What role did Pitchfork’s coverage play in that evolution?
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Pitchfork is the reason why that has happened, but I think we did make a really pointed case in recent years to say, “We’re going to give this artist what might be their first interview for a major publication. And we might also go ahead and book them for the festival.” We’ve heard from labels that they have signed artists based on Pitchfork album reviews and that tickets to shows have sold out once [an act] got Best New Music or once Pitchfork gave a glowing recommendation. Part of the way we curated the festivals during my time at Pitchfork was to give at least one [artist] their first headlining set at a festival. During my time there, that was HAIM, Big Thief, Phoebe Bridgers and Mitski. All folks who are vitally important to the conversation around music right now.
What role will the album review play going forward?
I find that music criticism and, specifically, the role of the album review is so important for anyone who cares about music. Every single day at midnight, we saw an uptick in traffic when we published our new album reviews. They are a way for fans to gauge their own understanding and opinion of how they feel. Beyond that, they contextualize an album against the artist’s own discography, explain the nuances of lyricism or that a [song sounds] intentionally familiar because it’s a callback to some other piece of art. I also really believe that the album review is a way for people to soundboard their own instincts. When they see, in Pitchfork’s case, a score, or they read someone who is talking about how a piece of music makes them feel, it’s a way for them to viscerally say, “I agree” or “I don’t agree” and explore why.
“I saw around 50 shows last year and always hold on to ticket stubs from special shows.”
Krista Schlueter
Why is it important to have a wider and diverse group of people pick Best New Music?
When I started at Pitchfork, I really made the idea of the album review scoring and consideration much more inclusive and collaborative. We would invite the entire staff to listen to an album. Bringing more people and more perspectives into the conversation opens up new windows and lanes to consider the piece of music, which always in my mind made us like it more. That’s not to say that there wasn’t an executive decision made from time to time.
With music publications shuttering or shrinking, does that create more space for independent voices to thrive?
It has been hard to watch the most iconic music publications slowly being pared down more and more. I’ve found a ton of inspiration and joy from the way that younger folks are using social media as a place to make music discovery and discourse accessible to more casual fans — especially as we’re seeing labels encouraging artists to take ownership of their narratives through some of the same formats. And while that sort of push from the music industry makes the industry ostensibly or optically less reliant on a journalist’s viewpoint, I still believe that journalism and arts writing is extremely valuable. At the very least, it acts as a historical record. So much of music right now is repurposed from other music, and knowing what you’re listening to and where it comes from is exceedingly valuable. I really believe that even very good marketing can’t replace very good music journalism.
Krista Schlueter
Who are your must-reads?
I want to shout out Mano Sundaresan’s blog, No Bells, which started as this tiny, friends-talking-about-rap thing but has evolved into a collection of some of the most interesting and spirited young people with a massive curiosity for new music. It’s done with the humor and levity and general alt-counterculture spirit that is missing from so much “capital s” serious writing.
How have you shaped the future of music journalism?
There tends to be a lot of acclaim awarded to people who are the first of their identity to step into some role that has historically been reserved for a certain other kind of person. And, honestly, almost everywhere I worked, I’ve been the first of some kind in my position: the first woman, the first person of color, the first Asian American. In most cases, I’m two of those things, sometimes all three. So you’re proving yourself to the systems that were made with other people in mind, and you are also bending those systems toward the future. You are de facto acting as a representative or a sounding board for people who might be or have felt underrepresented in the past. And just by way of that, you’re also reshaping the industry that you’re a part of.
This article originally appeared in the March 2, 2024 issue of Billboard.
Artist development isn’t dead, but it sure has changed. Two decades ago, a 20-something jazz musician named Norah Jones became a breakout star for Blue Note Records, a traditional route to stardom when people still bought CDs and social media didn’t exist. Last year’s breakout jazz artist, Laufey, cultivated a fan base on TikTok and posts sheet music for her songs online so fans can download it before the recordings come out.
To AWAL CEO Lonny Olinick, Laufey’s success is a sign of the times. The Icelandic singer built an online following by herself, but she needed a team to develop her career and handle marketing and promotion logistics. Her second AWAL album, Bewitched, topped Billboard’s Jazz Albums and Traditional Jazz Albums charts in September. “We’re seeing this real inflection point where artists are starting to, with their own teams and then between the team and AWAL, realize that there are no barriers in what can be achieved,” says Olinick, who earned an MBA from Stanford Business School and worked at consulting firm Bain & Company before joining Kobalt in 2016.
Artists such as JVKE, whose “Golden Hour” reached No. 10 on the Billboard Hot 100 in 2022, and Mercury Prize winner Little Simz have used AWAL to find success outside of the major-label system. AWAL’s services-focused approach is becoming the norm as major labels increasingly provide distribution, marketing, promotion, accounting and even financing without needing to own the rights to artists’ recordings as part of standard deals. Sony Music acquired AWAL in 2022 to complement its labels and its distribution business, The Orchard. Universal Music Group is also building its own artist services business, through a revamped Virgin Label Group.
A pingpong table that Olinick says “we have artists sign when they’re in the L.A. office.”
Maggie Shannon
Paradoxically, services-based music companies still have to do many of the same things as traditional labels — just with different deals. Only recently, Olinick says, has the 16-year-old company truly met that challenge. “Last year and the year before were probably the first years where we fully realized that vision, where I’m confident that we can do all of the things that exist in the traditional world.”
Most people in the music industry understand record labels and distributors, but services-based companies are a bit harder to get. How would you describe AWAL to the uninitiated?
The most important part of music in my mind is artist development. You try to find artists who have great music, compelling stories and a work ethic and try to help them forge their own path. And throughout history, the best artists have been artists who don’t fit in a box, and the path that they take is completely bespoke. And you can’t do it again the same way. What we’ve tried to do is build a company that’s the best in the world at doing that — at finding outlier artists who have great stories to tell and helping them grow. You need a great marketing team, a great digital marketing team, radio, synch and branding — all the things that exist in the traditional world. What we’ve tried to do is build a company that can do all those things, just with a different business model to keep the economics in favor of the artist.
You don’t have an everyone’s-welcome model — you choose who you want to work with. How do you do that?
We’re very opinionated about music. It’s really important as a company to have that creative, A&R-driven aesthetic. There’s three dimensions to it in my mind. There’s the music: Does the music speak to people? Two, is there a story to be told, and does this person want to communicate something beyond just the music that’s interesting and compelling? And three, does the person have a work ethic? Being successful in music requires relentlessly hard work on all sides.
“I love art of all types and take a lot of inspiration from culture,” Olinick says. “These books cover amazing music, art and sneaker culture.”
Maggie Shannon
Tell me about the staff on the creative side, as well as the administrative one.
We do everything, but the majority of our staff is focused on A&R, marketing and creative. That’s where we think we can be different and where we can help our artists tell stories. There’s 180 people across 14 offices. It’s run as a global company. If we find a record in Sweden, the U.S. company can jump on it, or the U.K. company or the Canadian one. Everyone is working collaboratively to try to do the best they can for the artist. And in each of those offices, we have traditional marketing, digital marketing, synch, brand partnerships, publicity — we basically do everything that an artist needs largely in-house. And then to the extent that we feel like we need something beyond what our 180 people can do, we will partner.
What’s the financial commitment when you work with an artist? Are you always writing a check?
It depends. Some of the deals are unfunded. We’re fortunate to be a part of Sony, so if it makes sense and we believe in the opportunity, there’s no check we couldn’t write if it made sense. But each deal is bespoke for the artist. We try to put as much money into marketing as we possibly can because we believe that that’s the thing we can do that hopefully makes a difference.
This “thing with eyes is something my son made for me,” Olinick says. The feeling of being watched “keeps me motivated every day. The small trophy is from our office awards for ‘Person on the Phone the Most.’ I take great pride in that.”
Maggie Shannon
Sony acquired AWAL in 2022 and it already owned The Orchard. How do the two work together?
The whole Sony ecosystem makes a ton of sense, and AWAL and The Orchard are great examples of that. The Orchard is best in class at supporting record companies. And if you look at the scale at which they operate, and the quality of what they do on behalf of labels, there’s just no one who’s doing that kind of work. It’s an incredible team led by Brad [Navin] and Colleen [Theis], who are just incredible executives. I look at us in a very similar way: the best at doing artist development in this nontraditional way. Being able to work together on tools and distribution is a great advantage for our clients and for The Orchard’s clients.
Some artists have gone from majors or big indies to AWAL, including Nick Cave, Cold War Kids and Jungle. Have some artists gone from AWAL to majors?
Our job is to develop the best artists in the world. And I think if we do that — especially if we do that at any scale — there’s going to be certain artists where the deal offered by a major is really compelling. Early on, we saw a lot more artists who would migrate and go do another deal. We developed Steve Lacy, Omar Apollo and Kim Petras — artists who have gone on and had real success at majors.
“The Marshall cabinet is actually a refrigerator,” Olinick says. “My office tends to have items from our artists, but the exception is that Beatles collectible — I don’t have anything to do with The Beatles, but it reminds me to aspire to work with the greatest artists.”
Maggie Shannon
You’ve had some time to integrate into Sony. How has being part of this larger company changed your life as a CEO?
Anytime you go into these things you have aspirations for what it will be. At the same time, [merger and acquisition] deals tend not to be what you expected them to be. People think that I’m sometimes saying the company line, and it couldn’t be further from the truth: The experience has been phenomenal. That comes down to two dimensions. Rob [Stringer, Sony Music CEO] is just an incredible music executive who comes from an A&R perspective. Being a part of a company where he sets the tone that music is at the center of everything you do has made us a better company. And because of that, it has basically been, “Here’s all these resources that Sony has that you can take advantage of, but continue to run the company the way you have because we’ve had tons of success doing it.” It has all been additive.We have more resources to invest. We have better technology. We can partner with Sony in certain markets where it makes sense. We’re out there building local businesses in Spain, Brazil, Nigeria and India. The Sony team has been incredibly supportive. Everyone sees that this is a meaningful part of the business and because AWAL is so music-centered and so is Sony, there’s just a lot of mutual respect and collaboration. It has been nothing short of reenergizing in an already energized business.
The music business is undergoing some contraction with layoffs and consolidation. Do you foresee laying people off, or are you hiring?
We’re actively hiring. We hired a head of hip-hop and R&B last year in Norva Denton. We hired a senior vp of A&R in Chris [Foitel]. We hired Cami [Operé], who’s our publicist. We just hired a new CFO [Sumit Chatterjee]. We’ve hired in Spain, Brazil and Nigeria. We bought a company in India [digital distribution firm OKListen]. So, we’re actively in the market because the business continues to grow. We had our best year last year; we’ll have our best year this year.
As the son of veteran agent Dennis Arfa, whose clients include Billy Joel, Metallica, Def Leppard and Rod Stewart, Jarred Arfa felt the pull of the entertainment business early on but wanted to make his own mark. And though he joined the family business, Artist Group International (AGI) — after a stint at Robert F.X. Sillerman’s licensing and rights company, CKX — he didn’t quite follow in his father’s footsteps, choosing to focus on agency management and business strategy instead of the day-to-day work of an agent.
In June, those responsibilities doubled when Jarred, 39, was promoted to executive vp/head of global music at Independent Artist Group (IAG), the talent firm formed when billionaire Ron Burkle’s The Yucaipa Companies merged AGI and the Agency for the Performing Arts, more commonly known as APA. (Yucaipa purchased AGI in 2012 and had been financing APA since 2020.)
The combined agencies now represent approximately 400 acts — a big jump from the 270 or so on AGI’s premerger roster — now that APA’s artists — among them, 50 Cent, Mary J. Blige, Lauryn Hill, Ne-Yo, Robert Glasper, Kamasi Washington, Cypress Hill and D’Angelo — have been folded into the mix.
That said, Jarred points out that “my role isn’t just signing clients, it’s signing agents” and growing the business as a whole. He also oversees the music division’s day-to-day operations and continues to work with his father, who is now IAG’s music division chairman. (Both manage Joel.)
Jarred, who lives with his wife and son in Manhattan, spoke to Billboard about the changes he has made at the agency. He also sized up his main competition and weighed in on WME and CAA agents’ dissatisfaction with their treatment after their companies’ initial public offering (IPO) and sale, respectively.
How did the IAG deal come together?
[Yucaipa co-founder and managing partner] Ron Burkle made an investment in APA during the pandemic. Frankly, we were not interested in them at first. The way their music department was run was not the way we ran ours, but I also saw they had some nice pieces of business. We met with Jim Osborne, who’s now [IAG] CEO, and we were really impressed by what he did with 50 Cent and Mary J. Blige — reinvigorating their brands through film and TV and how that enhanced their touring. So we started very organically. We decided not to commingle our music departments, but we had some artists interested in film and TV and started working with projects for Jane’s Addiction and Ghost. Eventually, we became agreeable to doing something bigger with APA if they handed the reins over to us in music. We merged, and Jim and Ron bet on me as the guy to help clean up their current music business in terms of who to keep and who not to keep.
How did Yucaipa’s culture affect IAG?
Their mantra has always been to let entrepreneurs be entrepreneurs and stay hands-off in the running of the business. We have one person from Yucaipa who works with us on a day-to-day basis, and then we go direct to Ron for bigger-picture things. When we sold the business to Yucaipa in 2011, I was still in my 20s, and I never felt he judged me by age. It was simply, “Are you smart? Can you get the job done?” If you deliver for him, you continue to rack up credibility. If I email him on something work-related, I’ll usually get a response quickly. It’s incredible, honestly, to have access to someone at that level.
How many clients does the company currently oversee?
In terms of touring, we have over 400 clients. That said, there were another 400 that were cut from the roster. We scrapped APA’s territorial system — which revolved around adult contemporary [acts] — and parted with some of the people in that model that didn’t work with our culture. We shifted some of the workforce and resources to where they were needed, which was their thriving urban department.
AGI was a music-first booking agency. How has merging with an agency involved in branding, film and TV benefited your roster?
Initially, [our music focus] served us well. We got a lot of clients who were promised the world by the major agencies, and when nothing was delivered for them, they’d come to us and say, “At least we know you’ll handle our touring well.” At the same time, it made it difficult to attract younger clients who were looking for [film/TV opportunities] and hoping for a branding deal. We need those other assets now to get us in the room for touring, which the APA partnership unlocks for us. And then we show them how much of a difference we can make on the touring side.
You have said that one of your most important responsibilities at AGI is to “stay neutral.” What does that mean?
It means I’m totally neutral when it comes to how we use our resources. A lot of times when we do sign an artist and I’m involved in the signing, I’m the one deciding which agent makes the most sense for the project because I’m the most versed in our agents’ skill sets and which one’s personality type suits the artist.
Billy Joel’s Madison Square Garden residency was a huge success. How will its completion affect business?
Nothing in our strategy changes. Obviously, you can never replace a once-in-a-lifetime-caliber artist on the level of Billy Joel, but as he recently said, he plans to continue to work after his residency at MSG is complete. We also have many other arena and stadium headliners.
How does IAG stack up against a competitor like Wasserman Music?
They’ve inherited a very strong music business. I think the problem they have — and they can dismiss it all they want, but it’s the same problem we had at AGI — is that they’re attached to a sports business. They don’t have the traditional film and TV core that is so important to so many of our artists. That’s an impediment.
Both WME and CAA have come under fire for how employees were treated during WME’s second IPO and CAA’s sale to Artemis. Agents at both firms were extremely disappointed with the amount and value of the shares they received. What’s your take?
First, I want to acknowledge that CAA’s $7 billion valuation is amazing for the agency business. As far as taking care of their people, when it comes to bonuses, I’ve always believed in the split model because there’s no arguments at the end of the day. The agent knows, based on a set formula, what they’re going to earn. There’s no gray area to be worked out, and that leads to a lot less headaches come those year-end conversations.
You’ve been public about your support of Ticketmaster. What is the government doing wrong in its constant probing of the ticketing space?
They should be focusing on the secondary market. That’s where the real problem lies. But they get lobbied hard by companies like StubHub. As agents, the best we can do is get as much of the high-end revenue for our artists that otherwise would go to the secondary market while keeping enough tickets available at affordable prices. Ticketmaster tools like Dynamic and Platinum are very helpful.
Do you think programs like Verified Fan are here to stay?
As much as I like Ticketmaster programs, this is the one that I don’t think works. Look at the backlash from Taylor Swift and Bruce Springsteen fans. Ticketmaster is making people take an extra step, and in exchange, the fans believe they’ll get a ticket at a fair price — neither of which is necessarily true. Verified Fan creates this false hope for the fan, and while the intention is noble, it ends up creating a lot more frustration than reward.
How often do you communicate with your father on agency business?
We speak a couple of times a day about what’s going on in his artist world and what his needs are. I would say we spend at least one phone call a day talking about Billy Joel and strategy. It is always a lot of fun.
When you two get together for family events, do you talk business?
It’s a blend. We could be talking about my son for one minute, then it goes back to the business. Then we talk about sports, and it’s back to business again.
Suhel Nafar understands the impact that music can have around the world.
Born in Lod — a city about 25 miles from Jerusalem — to Palestinian parents, Nafar learned English by listening to Dead Prez, 2Pac and The Notorious B.I.G. The influence of these artists was so strong that in the late 1990s, he — along with his brother Tamer Nafar and their friend Mahmoud Jreri — started the first Palestinian hip-hop group, DAM.
“Listening to hip-hop and seeing music videos of artists being chased by police and feeling their oppression and their anger without knowing what they were talking about because I didn’t speak English — I felt they were talking about me,” Nafar tells Billboard over Zoom from Lod in late October.
He spent 20 years touring the world with DAM, whose lyrics focused on such topics as inequality and oppression. Through his travels, he saw a need in the market and is now working behind the scenes to fill it.
“There aren’t enough of us,” Nafar says, “Arabs, Muslims, brown people and people of color in the music industry to support the artists in the region and around the world.”
Nafar started working on videos, films and other jobs that focused on artists in the West Asia and North Africa (WANA) region, which includes the Middle East, and helped its music scene coalesce. He moved to the United States in 2013 and taught as an artist in residence at New York University and, in 2018, began a three-year stint at Spotify. There, he helped establish WANA content on the platform and worked in its artist and industry partnerships division.
As vp of strategy and development at EMPIRE, where Nafar started in early 2021, he is leading the company’s expansion into the WANA region, which is rich with talent. Nafar says the generation of musicians he is fostering can help heal “the wound” inflicted by the conflicts there and their far-reaching repercussions.
He sees “glocalization” — global music genres such as pop and hip-hop adapted to WANA cultures — as the ideal delivery system and cites “Rajieen,” a direct response to the crisis featuring 25 WANA artists as an example. Nafar says the song and its powerful video have reached almost 10 million streams across all platforms.
What is EMPIRE’s West Asia and North Africa strategy?
I decided to move to EMPIRE because I felt that the technology of Spotify is great but that artists needed more behind-the-scenes support. [I needed] to be closer to artists and work with them on strategy. As a person that had the artist background, the [digital service provider] background and the content creation background, I thought I would help artists more from the label side.
At EMPIRE, I handle the strategy and development for the region. It means working with a lot of artists on signings and signing labels as well. I’m also developing the market. There’s a gap [in the WANA region] because we don’t have enough people behind the scenes. We don’t have enough managers. We don’t have enough labels.
How does EMPIRE’s independent approach to business influence your efforts?
My whole idea was how I could create a more independent mentality for others so that they could create their own EMPIREs and build their own rosters and executive teams. We signed a lot of labels from the region, along with good people who love music and are just missing skills, or people who have the skills but are missing people to be on their team. We’re providing this infrastructure to a lot of people here.
You’re saying that you’re building the industry itself, to a certain extent.
It’s supporting to amplify what’s already there more than building, I would say.
Nafar says he received this relief of Handala, a national symbol of the Palestinian people, “from a group of kids who attended one of my music and film workshops,” which he conducted in impoverished neighborhoods and refugee camps in Palestine.
Amir Nafar
What have been your biggest successes so far?
The number of female artists we have is amazing. We had at least four Arab female artists on Spotify’s Times Square billboard. My team and I are supporting voices of females from Morocco, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt and the diaspora. This type of excitement inspires other female artists to grow. I’m really proud of that.
Who are some Arab artists you’re most excited about?
Maro is a half-Lebanese, half-Ukrainian artist who speaks Arabic, English, French, Ukrainian and Russian and can sing in every language. He was raised in Beirut, where he grew up playing guitar in the streets as a busker. When there was violence in Lebanon, he had to move to Norway … We got an opportunity to bring him to the U.S., where he’s living now.
What about hip-hop artists?
MC Abdul, a 15-year-old kid from Gaza, is a genius who started rapping when he was 9. He learned English from hip-hop and speaks it better than a lot of Americans I know. A few months ago, we finally got him out of Gaza and flew him and his dad to San Francisco on an artist visa. He performed an amazing show there for over 20,000 people. He was in the studio and taking meetings to start his album rollout and was supposed to come back to Gaza [a few] weeks ago. Then the whole situation started, so he couldn’t go back to his family.
Another artist I love is Soulja, a rapper from Sudan. When the war in Sudan happened, we had to help him escape from Sudan to Egypt, and now he’s in Saudi Arabia. His recent release, “Ayam,” is a breakup song where he’s telling his love he doesn’t want to see her anymore, but his love is actually Sudan. He wrote it the day he escaped and was almost killed.
Name one of the women artists you’re supporting.
Nai Barghouti is another amazing artist. She’s a traditional Palestinian folk artist who recently did a song with Skrillex, “Xena.” Her vocal skills are unbelievable. Sometimes we’re like, “Are you human?” Because sometimes it feels like her voice is just an instrument. We’re working on a few projects with her.
Developing Arab artists and promoting the region globally must feel like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
There are people who’ve been in this field before me that did a lot of great work and other cultures that inspired us a lot. My days at Spotify inspired me so much because I worked closely with the Latin team, the Afro team, the Desi team. I watched how K-pop started from the early stages. I just localized what I learned from all those different cultures.
Amir Nafar
How have things shifted since the recent conflict started? What are your workdays like?
Artists are not feeling like they want to release music. That’s the biggest hit. The department I’m running [went from releasing] at least 20 songs a week to almost no songs. The first week, it was the shock of “What the fuck is going on?” and then canceling shows. A lot of festivals all around the Arab world were canceled.
As an artist myself, this is not the first time I’ve gone through it. There have been many times when we were about to drop an album, then Israel invaded Gaza, or there was some protest, or people were getting killed. We learned how to maneuver in these unfortunate situations.
What’s the first move in that maneuvering?
Before business is people. A lot of it is mental support because many artists are going through a lot of emotional pain right now. Everyone knows someone in Gaza. Every family knows a family. I know a hip-hop producer in Gaza that lost his entire family.
If this becomes a long war, how do you foresee it affecting your business?
Music is like history books. The artists will be the ones telling the stories. They will document what’s happening better than the Western media. They will do better songs than Taylor Swift and not do a post about Taylor Swift’s bodyguard. I just hope this won’t get to a point when it’s normalized and [people] will forget about it.
The story of Taylor Swift’s bodyguard returning to Israel to serve in the Israel Defense Forces was widely covered by the media, including Billboard. What are your thoughts on that story?
From my perspective, showing how cute this bodyguard is [who is] going to join the army is not something to make cool at a time when thousands of kids are being killed. [Humanitarian organizations] consider the IDF an illegal army that has done a lot of illegal activities. We as people who are working for music and culture should be uplifting the voices that would heal this wound and not say, “Look at this Taylor Swift bodyguard.”
Is there anything else you would like to say?
I wish this interview was in a different time [with me] talking more about the business. I actually almost canceled because it’s overwhelming watching my family and friends going through genocide. I want to represent the new generation and the music that is fucking amazing; not the situation where there’s an oppressor bombing families as we speak.
I also want to say that from a music and culture perspective, we’re entering a very unique era of the glocalization of a new generation. The culture is morphing. There isn’t one culture anymore. There’s no one genre anymore. This is the voice that I would like to amplify more than anything.
Amir Nafar
Thomas Coesfeld says that the next 10 years will be much different for BMG than the last 10.
Navigating the onslaught of generative artificial intelligence (AI), diverging streaming economic models and the slowdown in streaming revenue growth is among the challenges “that are keeping me up at night,” says the new CEO of the world’s fourth-largest music company, who sat down with Billboard for his first U.S. interview since succeeding Hartwig Masuch in July.
At 33, Coesfeld is the fresh young face of one of Europe’s oldest and most powerful media dynasties. His grandfather was Reinhard Mohn, a legendary CEO of BMG’s German parent company, Bertelsmann. Coesfeld’s predecessor also earned a spot in the media conglomerate’s corporate pantheon. Masuch reinvigorated BMG after serving as an adviser for the company’s uncoupling from Sony in 2007, building it into an entity that generated roughly 900 million euros ($947.7 million) annually. It’s now Coesfeld’s job to lead the company beyond the 1 billion euro mark ($1.1 billion) by 2024.
The Berlin-based executive spoke candidly about the challenge he faces being a relative newcomer to the music industry and the acumen he developed while overseeing BMG’s balance sheet since 2021 as the company’s CFO. Coesfeld received a baptism by fire as one of BMG’s chief negotiators for song catalog acquisitions during the market run-up in the early 2020s. From 2021 to 2023, he helped the company land 70 deals, including acquiring the catalogs of rock icons Mötley Crüe and Tina Turner, as well as those of Mick Fleetwood, Paul Simon, The Pointer Sisters, Peter Frampton and The Hollies.
A photo of Coesfeld’s grandfather, former Bertelsmann CEO Mohn, viewing the Manhattan skyline in 1954. Much like him, Coesfeld says he has a “strong fondness” for the United States.
Urban Zintel
Bertelsmann, flush with cash after its failed acquisition bid for Simon & Schuster, has promised to invest between 5 billion and 7 billion euros ($5.3 billion to $7.4 billion) across its companies through 2025 — an infusion that should help Coesfeld outpace BMG’s nearest competitors, Concord and HYBE, which are both on track to close $300 million to $500 million in company acquisitions this year. But competition doesn’t trouble Coesfeld. He is less combative and more collaborative than is typically found in the music industry.
“I’m convinced that the key challenge of the music industry is not fighting each other,” he says. “It’s not about conventional distinctions between segments, like frontline or catalog, or companies, like majors or indies. There are bigger challenges than that. What is needed is a more collaborative approach with business partners to face this more challenging environment.”
You’ve been in the CEO seat for just over 100 days. What is the five-year plan for BMG?
My predecessor was an entrepreneur who brought Bertelsmann back into the music space. He achieved a thing you don’t see that often, particularly in media. We are a very established company on a solid foundation. Now comes a new chapter. The next iteration of BMG will focus on better engaging with our artists, songwriters and business partners. I’m truly convinced we can only be effective if we are not focusing too much on ourselves — not building too much resources internally — but instead focusing on the value creation and service delivery for the artists and songwriters. Naturally, we will continue on our investment strategy.
What does BMG taking digital distribution in-house mean for the company’s future?
First, it allows us to significantly upgrade our services for artists. We get better in our marketing ability to advocate for the songs, campaign management, things like that. Second, we get better and direct access to the data feeds from the platforms. Artists care about that. The third point is it’s massively enhancing our service portfolio. This enables us to offer a bigger variety of deals for artists to allow them to choose what kind of service level they want. And then obviously, every intermediary takes fees. So this allows us to have a more sustainable business model, become more competitive and offer more competitive terms to our artists. And artists get the monies faster.
Another photo of Mohn.
Urban Zintel
How does integrating the frontline business and catalog help you achieve these goals?
What’s key on the recording side is marketing. What is new and increasingly important is understanding the [streaming] channels. You need expertise for each [digital service provider]. Spotify is really different from Apple. We’ve had a direct relationship with YouTube for the last eight months, and the results are phenomenal — not just from a topline perspective, which is the ultimate measure, but also in having access to data, providing improved service on marketing, trending and velocity to artists. If you look through the lens of marketing, frontline and catalog become more integrated because the skill that makes the difference is marketing and understanding the channel. Consumption is way more fragmented. Fans make their own choices. Music taste is the decisive factor.
What do you expect streaming growth to look like in the coming years?
Two trends are relevant: One is that the massive market growth for the future of streaming in Western markets will happen through price increases. The second is the majority of the volume growth will happen in the developing markets. The good news is that the market is still fundamentally growing — not at the same speed as in the past 10 years — but we still have a fundamentally attractive market.
We need to own distribution to fully understand the trends early on and to react faster, to market in more tailored ways. With lower growth, we need to be more precise in how we invest marketing dollars.
How would you describe your leadership style?
There is a German saying: “You always see each other twice in life.” The idea of this saying is you always have opportunities — from a power-play perspective, you’re in a better situation — but the more sustainable approach is to still treat everyone as partners. We are in it for the long run. This is, for me, a paradigm for how to act on a daily basis. I’m very grateful for the partnership we had [with ADA]. We tripled our revenue. We’ve learned a lot, and it was clear from the get-go that at some point in time we would leave. [Warner Music Group CEO] Robert [Kyncl] and I had very frank conversations about it.
The statuette, which was a gift from Coesfeld’s aunt, “represents ambition,” he says.
Urban Zintel
What opportunities do you see in the catalog market?
We have a well-oiled machine. We know how to assess catalog, pitch and discuss with artists and songwriters. Hartwig built a reputation. Artists and songwriters trust us. That’s a big opportunity from a positioning standpoint. Paired with a very committed parent company, which is willing to fund the further growth of this company, we see massive growth, and I remain very optimistic about the market fundamentals. There are a lot of things going on which may cause challenges — streaming economics, generative AI — but I see those as massive opportunities for the industry overall.
How have your previous executive roles at Bertelsmann shaped you, and how will they shape BMG?
This is my first CEO role. Now, I can’t blame the CEO any longer! I’m a firm believer from my own experience that the way you treat people, the way you interact in all types of relationships, is critically important to firm longevity and business success. If you take that and apply it to BMG, it’s even more important because our clients are a diverse set of characters. That’s why they have fans. They are not normal. They are not average. They are different. They are beyond that. Treating people with respect is critically important, and that sets Bertelsmann apart from other companies.
And in my CFO role, I had the privilege of being responsible for a catalog acquisition strategy. That helped me a lot in getting to know so many artists over the last two to three years. That introduced me quite well to this industry. Not having been around for decades in the music business was a challenge and, at times, still is.
A keyring that Coesfeld bought in New York when he was 12 and has carried with him since.
Urban Zintel
What is BMG’s view of the ongoing experiments with artist-centric and user-centric streaming payment models?
We are not the market maker there, which is important to understand our views. Overall, I welcome that we are having this discussion as an industry. What is on the table is a great step in the right direction. We are about to establish mechanisms to fight fraud, money laundering, things like that. Even more importantly, in light of gen AI, it is so easy to create music and to have artificial consumption of music.
How do you see this as a tool to address your concerns around generative AI?
If you don’t have mechanisms that make a distinction between human artistry and white noise, then something is wrong about the system. The streaming economics were designed 12 years ago. They are just not the appropriate models any longer. One thing I’d love to see more pronounced is trust in consumer choices — so a distinction between the superfan who is listening to just one artist and the more infrequent listener who is also paying $11 a month but listening to 50 streams a month.
What are the pitfalls and opportunities of generative AI?
I do see a fundamental threat to the ‘copyright-ability’ of human creativity. If regulators do not hold up, we will have a big issue. What keeps me optimistic is that fans don’t just care about the musical expression. It’s about the personality, the artist — especially for superfans.
Whether he’s building live-music clubs and theaters or renovating them, Rick Mueller abides by a simple rule for his complex job: “The best venues bring out the best in the fans and the best in the band.”
As AEG Presents president of North America, Mueller, 50, oversees all of the rooms in the territory for which the company is the primary talent buyer.
His purview includes more than 100 U.S. properties — mostly theaters and clubs managed by one of 13 regional offices that report to him. Among them are those owned and operated by The Bowery Presents, a collection of destination plays such as Brooklyn Steel and Forest Hills Stadium in New York and a series of newly opened clubs in Boston, Denver, Atlanta and Cincinnati. He’s also heavily involved in business development, overseeing construction of new projects that AEG Presents will exclusively book, like Nashville Yards, as well as bringing existing venues like the Santa Barbara (Calif.) Bowl under AEG Presents management.
“We’re building AEG as [a collection] of more regionally run businesses,” he explains. “That allows us to be more responsive to those markets — what’s happening musically there and what the customer wants.”
Mueller, who is originally from the San Francisco Bay area and now lives in Los Angeles, contends that strategy gives AEG Presents a “distinct advantage” over its main competition, Live Nation, where he briefly worked. “Live Nation is a very centralized company,” he says. “They buy their talent centrally. They make their concession deals centrally. They probably have their alcohol sponsored, and it’s driving whatever they serve in their venues. I don’t know that they give a lot of specialized thought in any given city to what is a great experience.”
You have opened a lot of smaller clubs. How do you identify markets that need another venue?
Since the pandemic, we’ve opened The Eastern in Atlanta, Roadrunner in Boston and the MegaCorp Pavilion in Cincinnati. They’re all doing really well, and we want to continue to add a lot more venues to that list. We’ve got Nashville Yards, which will open up at the end of 2024 or early 2025. We’ve got a venue in Raleigh [N.C.] that will open up in the first half of 2025. These are brand-new builds. As for what markets we look at — any place there’s opportunity. Sometimes that’s a function of a certain capacity room that doesn’t exist in a marketplace.
What size venues are your sweet spot?
We’re focusing on locations with capacities of 1,500 to 5,000. There’s more and more bands that are coming out of this frictionless distribution of music. They are able to sell tickets, so there’s a huge demand for these size venues. The bands can’t find enough dates, and we want to make sure that we service that opportunity.
You’ve opened a club called Racket in Manhattan, a market where you already have a number of small clubs. Why open another?
New York is a market where we’ve invested in very small spaces because it’s a very important developmental market for our relationships and conversations with bands. We feel that finding any venue in Manhattan — in this case, we renovated the old Highline Ballroom —is an opportunity we’re going to look at every single time.
What niche will Racket fill?
Look, in New York there’s a variety of bands that could sell more tickets than probably any other market in the United States. It’s also a first statement-type play. These smaller rooms are where we do a lot of, call it R&D. We build relationships with young bands, and then we want them on a path to play our whole venue portfolio. We hope that carries all the way through to our bigger venues like Forest Hills. It’s a true vertical pipeline where we can service an artist’s needs at any level.
Are small music clubs the new A&R for artists?
I think the internet is A&R for artists. In this day of social media and frictionless distribution, artists can be their own advocates. As far as building a live base, New York is a very important market to start relationships with artists early. In key markets that can handle a lot of shows, we’re going to continue to invest in that.
A lot of live-industry innovations start at the club level. What are your priorities?
What you’re seeing across the board in the industry is the desire for more premium offerings. There’s a huge group of people out there who are willing to pay a little bit more whether it’s for a better seat, a better experience, a better drink, better dining. We’re looking at that, but we’re also tailoring our offerings so that there’s an experience for everybody. We want to make sure that we offer a range of experiences — from cheaper to high-end.
Billboard recently reported that Gen Z concertgoers aren’t big consumers of alcohol. How do you adapt?
We’re keeping a very close eye on that. It’s a big part of the business, and it certainly hasn’t dropped off a cliff. People are still drinking, and we’re doing more offerings, whether it’s nonalcoholic or specialty cocktails. Almost on a daily basis, we look at where our numbers are and try to understand why, but it’s something that’s really hard to see in the moment. You have to collect data, and by the time you see where the trends are going, you hope you’re in a position to adjust to it.
How does your division run differently than, say, Live Nation’s House of Blues chain and its smaller venues?
Live Nation takes more of, I’ll say, a cookie-cutter approach to music. House of Blues is a chain, and it’s the same somewhat uninspired experience anytime you go to one of them. We’re opening brands that we hope speak to their markets and stand with their own identity.
Have you noticed any changes in the way fans buy tickets since the pandemic?
When we first came back, the number of no-shows was much higher than we’re accustomed to. That pretty much leveled off and came back into what you’d call traditional ranges. There are trends where a fan might wait a little longer to buy tickets. That’s more market-specific, and that dynamic has always existed. When I first started in this business at Bill Graham Presents, Detroit was this crazy, huge, late-selling market and would do thousands of tickets week of show at some of the amphitheater properties. It doesn’t sell the same way now. San Francisco has had a lot of changeover in terms of its population. Sales are up, but we see [ticket purchases] shifting a little bit later in the overall cycle. We are seeing more of a strong close to a lot of shows there, and why that is I’m not sure. But as an industry, we’re still selling a lot of tickets early in the game, especially in big arenas and the stadium star category. Business has been incredibly good. You haven’t really heard about a lot of large-scale underperforming tours.
What are the hot genres for ticket sales?
Generally stated, country continues to explode, as well as the land that Zach Bryan and Tyler Childers and even Jason Isbell inhabit — they aren’t traditional-style country. Kelsea Ballerini’s most recent tour is exploding. We’ve also seen incredible results with dance music. If you look at what has gone on at Brooklyn Mirage, which is not in our company, they’ve had what appears to be a record season.
What headwinds do you see?
If there’s a negative trend in the business, it’s that more multigenre festivals have struggled to maintain success. The big experiences like Coachella, Lollapalooza, Outside Lands are stronger than ever. They’re brands that people trust, and the festival experience is great. Below that, some festivals have struggled, while you’re seeing more single-genre festivals — dance, for instance — succeed. Look at Electric Forest. It speaks to a very specific audience, and it’s stronger than ever.
A year ago, indie and smaller acts were canceling tours because they were losing money. Is that still happening?
It has leveled off. A lot of people had sold tickets at a different kind of ticket price before the pandemic and made their budgets on one set of dynamics. Then when it was time to go out and tour post-pandemic, it cost a lot more to be out on the road. If your sales weren’t that good or you weren’t expecting to earn any back-end, you could end up losing money, which is why I think some people pulled down their tour plans. Costs have gotten under control, but it’s still expensive to tour. The challenge for midlevel tours is finding a balance between prices that are welcome among the fan base and the costs of being out on the road. Sometimes you have to find a mix of festivals and soft-ticket money out there to help pay for the markets that don’t cover the nightly bill that you need to earn.
How does the currently high level of inflation affect AEG’s business?
It costs a lot more for security and the labor to run our shows. And again, in some of these big markets where there’s a lot of events going on on a given weekend, it can be hard just to find staff. So managing our labor costs has been a real challenge. We have to look carefully when we do an event and what that costs and if we can make enough money for it to be worthwhile. Sometimes you go into these unique situations where the artist doesn’t seem to make any money because it costs more to do the show, and we’re struggling to make money, but it’s an important look for the artist. So we are all going in with the right goals and intentions to grow that artist’s career so that they make money on their live shows when they come back to that market.
Enter the National Arts Club, a Victorian Gothic Revival brownstone off Manhattan’s Gramercy Park; climb four winding flights of stairs; pass the Pastel Society of America; and there will be the offices of director Wes Anderson’s longtime music supervisor, Randall Poster. And though in summer 2023 Hollywood is at a strike-induced standstill, Poster, creative director of Premier Music — the advertising-focused music supervision agency — is as busy as ever.
(Update: A tentative deal has been reached between screenwriters and the studios, streaming services and production companies.)
Poster’s film projects in the next several months include music supervision for the fall’s The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar (with Anderson), Priscilla (with Sofia Coppola), Killers of the Flower Moon (with frequent collaborator Martin Scorsese), as well as Joker: Folie á Deux (with Todd Phillips) and Hit Man (with Richard Linklater).
And that’s just his day job. Amid the pandemic, an unlikely new passion became a calling when Poster started the Birdsong Project, enlisting his diverse group of artist friends to create music inspired by or incorporating birdsong in an effort to benefit avian life. The result: For the Birds, a 20-album box set containing 172 new pieces of music and 70 works of poetry (all proceeds go to the National Audubon Society) and has led to a growing global community that’s still evolving under his leadership, one in which he hopes the music industry will take a real interest.
How has the strike affected your business?
There are some movies I’m working on that we can’t get finished because we can’t get the main actors to do [automated dialogue replacement]. And then there are movies that were meant to start in the fall that are pushing. I think everyone’s unclear about how it’s going to play out. I don’t really talk to a lot of other music supervisors, but for people who are just scraping by in music supervision, the shutdown of shows is brutal. In terms of music departments, there has been constriction at the streamers, but I’m not sure that was borne out of the strike, at least to this point. But in the short term, I’m busy. And our company, in terms of doing a lot of advertising work, thankfully, that has been very active.
A sampling of Poster’s extensive collection of musician paintings by Dan Melchior, part of an ongoing series, alongside a ceramic bird by Ginny Sims.
Nina Westervelt
Even in the music industry, I think few understand very well what a music supervisor actually does. How would you explain it?
I view my work as a filmmaker, not just a person who deals with the music — using music to best tell a story, to compensate where the story needs a bit of help and having a really candid and fluid relationship with directors and producers. People always say to me, “Oh, Randy Poster’s the guy who picks the music for the Wes Anderson movies” — but I don’t pick the music. I don’t want to be the one who does. Directors pick. I may present, we may have a conversation borne out of months of musical dialogue, but ideally, it’s the director’s medium. When people come out of the movies I work on and say, “Oh, the music was the best part,” that’s not really a victory. When people say, “I don’t really even remember the music,” sometimes that’s the best service you can do to the film — that it feels like the fabric of the movie.
What does a normal day of work look like for you?
Making sure rights are coming in; working on scenes of a movie and putting different songs up to it; making calls to record companies and publishers to see if I can narrow a price differential in terms of what we have to pay and what they’re asking us to pay; reaching out to artists and managers to see if people are interested in recording new music; looking at cues that are coming in from the composer on the movie; putting together a playlist for a director — like when starting a project, using the music to establish a dialogue. Describing what music is doing is very difficult, and words don’t necessarily mean the same things to different people, but if you can relate to songs, it gives you a sense of tempo, vibe, instrumentation they like. And then getting feedback from directors and editors: “This is working. This isn’t. Is there too much music in the movie? Is there not enough?” Sometimes it’s my role to protect the silences.
From left: A painting of country artist Jim Reeves by artist Henry Miller; a ceramic bird sculpture by Joseph Dupré; a painting of Buck Owens’ band, The Buckaroos, by Ashley Bressler (one of many artists Poster has discovered on Instagram).
Nina Westervelt
Has the catalog sales boom affected your bottom line?
When certain catalogs were held by the artist or the artist’s camp, there was a little more flexibility. If a company pays $500 million for an asset, they can’t license something at what they would say is a sort of embarrassing rate. Like, “We’re only licensing this for $10,000 a use; it’s going to take us 200 years to recoup our investment.” On the other hand, I always feel, especially with older catalogs, a movie use is going to open up a new audience to that artist, whether it’s “Oh, that’s Rod Stewart?” or “Wow, I had an idea of what Janis Joplin was like, but I’m surprised by this.”
Does it feel less personal than working with publishers and songwriters?
I wish things were more human and less corporate, but I’ve seen it throughout my whole career. You used to have 12 companies you’d license music from, and then two companies would merge and they’d cut half the staff. They’d have the catalog, but no one would know whom to talk to. A lot of times, what we have to do is convince these companies they actually own something or help them make a connection. That can also be fun — the detective work that goes into figuring out who owns the rights to something. I just wish the music companies had more of an understanding of the process of filmmaking. Oftentimes, it’s not just needing the price to be right — it’s also getting a timely answer. Name the price; just give me an answer.
A cardboard replica of the police car from the Blues Brothers movie by artist Richard Willis.
Nina Westervelt
On the flip side of that, the synch business is so huge. Do you get pitched often?
Yeah, people are pitching nonstop. There are people whom I respect and trust, and my response is always I want to listen to anything you think is great, but I just want to find the right music. This is going to sound horrible, but I don’t do anybody any favors. I’ll do you a favor in life as my friend, but I will not put music in a movie because I’m connected to somebody. I certainly do file things away for the future. I may love a song but not have the right movie for it. At the moment, I’m working on things in the ’20s, the ’50s — period pieces.
How do you seek out new music?
Every way — through social media, through traditional music press, recommendations. I have two daughters who are very into music. Artists lead you to artists a lot. I’ve been very reluctant to use an algorithm to find music. Probably at certain points I’d benefit from that, but I like to discover it myself.
A beaded African tribal hat Poster bought from a street vendor on Manhattan’s Houston Street. “As we started reaching out to artists we loved to make album covers for the box set, I found myself looking at all sorts of bird- centric pieces, and I couldn’t resist them.”
Nina Westervelt
Speaking of discovery, how did you get the idea for the Birdsong Project?
I’m a New York City kid; I’m not really a nature boy. But during the pandemic, we were all somewhat soothed by the way nature seemed to be doing its thing, unperturbed by the virus, and a lot of my friends were noticing there were so many birds. A friend I work with, Rebecca Reagan, who lives in California and is much more involved in nature causes, was like, “You should get all your musician friends to create music around birdsong. That would be a great way to joyfully draw people’s attention not only to the beauty and variety of birds but also the crises facing birds. It would be a nonpolitical way to draw people to protect the birds.” For the most part, I’ve found, no one wants to see birds die. It’s a way to bring together people in community, which seems to be so difficult otherwise. The response from artists was very positive, and it just kept going.
What do you get out of it that you don’t from your day job?
I’m usually the person who has to be a very strong editorial hand in getting what we need for a movie. Here, I just said [to artists], “Thank you.” It was very much a broad invitation to do what they feel. I didn’t really give notes, other than maybe, “Hey, this is beautiful. Can it be nine minutes versus 23 minutes?” It was liberating. I had to allow a certain kind of randomness versus how you sequence music for a movie.
What are your ambitions for the project with respect to the music industry?
I would like to see us adopted by the music community like they have the TJ Martell Foundation. But that may be a longer road. So we’re just working away. The label Erase Tapes has 10 artists on the compilation, so in 2024, they’re going to do a Birdsong album by taking their artists and remixing them, and I’d like to do collaborations with other labels so it spreads. That way I’m not the record company — we work with your artists, we curate with you. I think we’ll be ready in 2025 to hopefully do a big Birdsong concert maybe in Central Park.
At this point in your career, you’re a bit of a music supervision legend. How do you advise young people who want to do what you do?
I encourage them to find their contemporaries who want to make movies and throw in. It has never been easier to make movies. I wanted to work on movies where that one kid in the movie theater thinks, “I want to do this” — Wes and I were that kid. Do whatever you need to do to create and be creative. When people ask me the difference between how I work now and how I worked 25 years ago — well, I probably cry a little bit less, in the sense that when a director does not choose a song I feel is so right, I have more of a balanced [reaction]. I still am up for battles, though. And hopefully, people want to work with me because I’m not just a rubber stamp. We have to fight for every cue.
