State Champ Radio Interview
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Travis Scott, Drake, Lizzo… and Jean Dawson. The list of artists that R&B superstar SZA has collaborated with in 2023 is stacked with some of the music industry’s biggest names, but a Gen Z genre-non-conforming auteur from San Diego gifted the “Kill Bill” singer her most poignant duet of the year just in time for fall (Sept. 22).
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“NO SZNS,” a breezy reflection on the all-consuming stupor of California heat, combines both artists’ penchant for introspective songwriting, unflinching examinations of the most incomprehensible of human emotions, and instrumental arrangements that pull from indie rock as readily as they pull from hip-hop and soul. Its music video, a cinematic take on childhood laced with arguments and discord, finds Dawson stepping behind the camera, bringing SZA into his intimate and idiosyncratic visual world.
The new track follows a slew of projects (“side quests,” as Dawson describes them) that are filling the void between 2022’s Chaos Now* — a grungy, ambitious set that featured collaborations with Earl Sweatshirt and production contributions from Isaiah Rashad — and the Mexican-American artist’s forthcoming LP. While he is still unsure of the timeline for his next studio effort, Dawson is certain the album will be “beautiful,” mostly because he has completely rejected the compartmentalization circus that has consumed much of the music business.
“I want to build music without having to focus on everything that I am,” he says. “I want to fractalize myself.”
In paying special care to each facet of his being that makes him an artist who has enraptured a sprawling ever-growing audience across races, ages, and genres, Dawson continues to follow Prince’s uncompromising, do-it-himself blueprint. Whether it’s incorporating his native Spanish tongue into his music at his own pace or touring alongside acts as disparate as Interpol and Lil Yachty, Jean Dawson is currently undergoing yet another metamorphosis – and he’s particularly excited about what lies ahead and how he can continue to subvert everyone’s expectations. “I want you to guess,” he teases.
In an intimate conversation with Billboard, Jean Dawson opens up about his upcoming European headlining tour, his thoughts on the utility of record labels, trying to figure out “what James Blake would sound like if he was Mexican” with his upcoming project, nostalgia and iPad kids.
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Walk me through how “No SZNS” (with SZA) came to be.
In the DMs. That’s how we started talking. She liked the music a whole lot. I think it was maybe a day after she had DMed me — she was working on her album [SOS] at the time — we hung out for several hours and just talked. It was sick. I didn’t realize how alike we were in a lot of different ways, and we worked on some other stuff.
[“No SZNS”] I had been working on prior, just like arrangements and stuff like that. There’s a lot of instrumentation on it, so I think I hit a wall at some point with the song — and then I met SZA. I was like, “Oh, maybe she can finish my sentence.” I showed it to her, and she was like, “Yeah, I’m super down. This is awesome!” So, she wrote her verse, recorded it, and workshopped it for a little bit. It’s not the most intense story of all time, but it’s definitely like, “You had to be there.”
What was your favorite moment shooting the “NO SZNS” music video?
My favorite moment in that video had to be when the two parents were arguing. In the video, SZA’s played by a little girl named Bliss, and I’m played by a little boy named Brave — that’s their actual government names. They’re sitting and coloring and their parents are behind them arguing. Like many people’s childhoods, my childhood was a lot like that. [I went to] the two actors that we had hired and talked to them about their intentionality, how they’re arguing, and what they should argue about. It was really real. They’re arguing about the father needing to be there, and the mom’s, like, “I just need you here.” And the dad’s like, “I’m working, I’m here. I’m here right now, but I need to work to provide.”
I almost cried. I was like Oh, s—t. It got too real for me. Bliss and Brave’s mom and dad are our family friends, so they’re sitting by, and I’m just watching [the kids] be like, Damn, our parents are not like that. That made me really happy. That was one of my favorite moments of shooting it and as being a director on that.
SZA is far from your first high-profile collaborator. How important is it for you to truly understand and know your collaborators on a personal level?
I never collaborate with somebody I don’t know. I have a rule of thumb in music. There’s a lot of people that come from a lot of different traumas and environmental factors that cause them to be a certain kind of way. Sometimes, you get people that have been treated like s—t their entire life, and now they’re in a position of power, so they get their lick back on people who don’t necessarily need it. Sometimes, I’ll look at artists and be like, “Damn, I really don’t like you. I like the music, but I really don’t like you.”
So, spending time with SZA only verified that I was a fan of her as a human being. And the same thing goes for anybody that I work with. I have the capacity to live on my own terms, so I just don’t spend time in places I don’t want to be in. If I already like spending time with you, then making music will probably be automatic. It’s like breathing, you don’t even have to think about it.
But there’s a lot of times where it’s not bad where I’m just like, “You’re cool to me, I never have to see you again.” SZA was not one of those people.
Her career arc has been incredible to watch. Do you want something like that for your career? Or are there bits of it that you’d like to make fit your vision for yourself?
It’s funny because a lot of people that have worked around us say our arcs are similar. I don’t necessarily look at people’s success rate in terms of how popular they are, I look at how great they are because that will stand the test of time. Mad people get popular for a little bit of time, they’re here and then they’re gone. I’ve made it very, very clear to myself that having a job in music is the only thing I want to live for — so I’ve been doing it for 13 years, and now I’m getting considered to be a “new artist,” which is totally fine with me. That just means that my legs are very long.
I got asked yesterday, “How do you feel about possibly becoming very, very famous?” And I don’t feel anything about it — as much as it sounds like a cool answer. Me being dismissive isn’t something for aesthetic. As long as I can make music for the rest of my life, I’m not really worried about much. I think that [SZA’s] getting the praises she deserves — and she’s been deserving of for a long time — and I’m just happy to stand with somebody that believes in me so much. She’s definitely stuck her neck out very, very long for me. If I have the success of SZA, awesome. If I have the success of somebody you never know, awesome too. It’s one and the same for me.
On your Wikipedia page, they describe you as an “experimental pop” artist. What do you make of that phrase?
You know what? I don’t mind. Experimental pop. I feel like that may be the closest thing to what I do. Me and DQ – my big sister, publicist — we’ve talked about this for a long time. We talked about how people perceived me and she understands, and I understand, that I don’t like being perceived. I don’t like my music being perceived in any kind of way, but you can perceive me. I feel like “experimental pop” is fine. I like hooks, and that’s pop. I like songs that people want to sing.
The experimental part… I also don’t want to be bound by any one construct. Early on I decided I’m going to find all the rules and then pick ones not to follow. And that’s kind of how I ended up making music in the first place. That’s why people were like, “But it’s rock, but it’s not rock, but it’s this and it’s that.” One of my favorite artists, Prince –I’ll never compare myself to that man, but what Prince was able to do was make music that was Prince: It wasn’t necessarily rock or pop or R&B. It was Prince.
When people started trying to define me for the sake of utility, like, “Oh, where do we place this?” — place it everywhere. It’ll work.
On the spectrum of visibility, there’s a middle ground where people see one side of you, but not all of you. The concept of the multiplicity of the self… how does that inform the way you incorporate different languages in your music?
As a Black and Mexican person, I’ve learned my entire life how to code-switch, because some language is going to make some people uncomfortable. So, I’m like, “OK, I can’t go up to this white dude and be like, what’s up, my n—a,” it’s not going to work. The reason why I’ll go from Spanish to English to quote-unquote Ebonics to whatever, it’s because the voice is an instrument. It just depends on what I need. I’m not going to use an electric guitar for a part that needs an acoustic guitar, and I’ll rather use a, you know, a f—ing baritone guitar. When I use my different languages, it makes it easier for me to understand myself because I’m not just one thing.
I’m trying to spend my time being more similar to everything than dissimilar. I think a lot of times creatives get in this place where they’re like, “I’m so different,” and I’m tired of being different. Not in the way that I want to assimilate to any idea — I’m tired of being different because it’s not a choice. A lot of people spend their lives separating themselves, and I want to spend more of my life doing what I do in my music. Spanish and English go together because it’s one and the same. Some things I can say better in Spanish than I can in English and some things I can say better in English than I can in Spanish.
My dad was a thug, so a lot of my tongue comes from my father, and then my mother learned English through Black folk. Her English is also proper because Mexican people have the propensity to have to learn English a certain kind of way because they think that they have to. And here, especially when you’re first generation or second generation, you adhere to a status quo of language, or else you’re considered to be “country” or something. And my mom could give two f—ks, but she also was, like, “Y’all going to read these books before you go to bed. A lot of them.”
Y’all wasn’t no iPad kids!
Bro, I’m telling you! You seen iPad Dog?
What?!
There’s an iPad dog. It’s fire. I played the game, and he jumps on the screen, and he taps the screen and s—t.
This is not OK.
I try and spend less amount of time on technology as I possibly can and everybody said, “You need to do this. You need to do that.” I’m like, “You know what? I’m going to take a walk.” I feel like we’re just getting to that age, where we’re turning into old people – because remember how much we were outside?
It’s impossible to talk about contemporary tech without also speaking about algorithms. Has the rise of algorithms in the music industry impacted your ability to create freely, either explicitly or subliminally? How does it impact the way you promote releasing and promoting your music?
In the ‘90s, people hated MTV, because if you didn’t get on TV, you weren’t going to go up. Same thing goes with even before that. In the ‘70s, ’80s, if the disc jockey didn’t f—k with you, you wasn’t going nowhere. You’re gonna end up another vinyl that’s in the thrift store that people don’t listen to.
We’re in a time now where data collection is so important for people to optimize. It’s all about optimization. That optimization has become so clear that you don’t even have to pick your own music anymore. I think there’s a lost love there. It can lead to you not having the sense of discovery.
When I was coming up, I would have to go on YouTube wormholes to try and find new stuff. I’m like, “Oh, there’s this artist, and then there’s this artist. Holy s—t! What is this? This is crazy!” I think now it’s optimized to a point where so many of those steps are gone, which bottlenecks the industry. There’s, I don’t know, 100,000 songs uploaded to Spotify and Apple Music daily. There’s only going to be a few that get past the threshold of playlisting to where more people will listen to them.
Since we have so many people making music, we have lottery winners, which I’m never going to be mad at. We have people that win the TikTok lottery, or it’s like you had a single part of a song that people love, and it’s giving you a career hopefully. A lot of times, it’s probably a scary position, because you haven’t built an infrastructure to support that growth — so you’re going to topple over and people are not going to know who you are in the next following year. I don’t think there’s a good or bad way to do it. I don’t know if it’s necessarily going to decide s—t for us. It’ll just make it easier for us not to have to ever make a decision.
I’m pro-innovation, but I’m also pro-tradition. If you want to go look for music and find a diamond in the rough, do that. I was 17 when I first got found on SoundCloud. I think what’s conducive to me making music is Rick Rubin telling me, “Take your time,” and Jay-Z telling me in my face, “You’re great.” I’ll take that over the algorithm telling me that my s—t is popping.
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I think your attitude towards the power of algorithms plays out in how you structure your releases – you’re not one to tack standalone singles onto a project to play the streaming game, for example. So, walk me through two of your projects from this year: Xcape and Destruction for Dummies.
It’s supposed to be a trilogy, there’s two out now. I’m trying to think when the next one will come out. The last installment is supposed to be called Arcoíris — “Rainbow” in Spanish – but I’ve just been doing a bunch of other stuff.
On ‘Xcape, Pt. 1’ Jean Dawson as “Phoenix,” [Phoenix] is the more aggressive, I have something to say, loudmouth kid. On the next installment, ‘Destruction for Dummies, Pt. 2’ Jean Dawson as “Nightmare,” I had just got out of a relationship, and I was feeling it for real. It was the perfect excuse to find this Eeyore-type personality. Boohoo is the next person for Arcoíris, and he’s the pity party guy, where it’s like: Feel bad for me, and not in the way where I’m going to tell you why to feel bad for me.
I think my headspace when I was making those… I wanted side quests. I wanted to make a chapbook or an anthology series that wasn’t canon. In anime, there’s things that are non-canon events, and that’s kind of what these side quests have been. It’s not like a body of work where my idea from A-Z is complete. It allows you to work out your own ideas without being constrained to the sound of an album, but also not an EP.
So, in that case, what have you settled on as far as the next album is concerned?
I’m trying to think when it will come because I have two plans. Either I’m going to go away for three years and just disappear, or I’m going to put an album out next year, I don’t know. I believe we’ll have a lot of Spanish. I’m also trying to do music in Spanish that hasn’t been done before because some stuff in Spanish — like trap music — has been done. The stuff that’s supe- popular with regional music right now, it’s being done. It’s being done very well. I’m trying to find the space in my brain to figure out what James Blake sound like if he was Mexican. I’m not saying that I’m gonna do that, but I’m just saying that’s my line of thinking.
There’s going to be more Spanish involved, just cause my grandma was like, “Why don’t you make more music In Spanish?” And I was like, “F–k. She called me out.” Honestly, the only reason I hadn’t is because some of the things I have to say, I can’t say in Spanish. Which is kind of a lame reason, and now when she put me on the spot, I’m like, “Damn, I really don’t have that reason, because it’s my first language.” I need to actually do it because I want to do it now. Before, I felt like it was maybe forced or something, and I didn’t want to use it as kudos or a pony trick. It’s like, “No, dude, it’s my language.”
[People] hear me speak Spanish, or when they hear a song in Spanish, they’re like, “No, you don’t understand what that makes me feel.” So, for that full-length project, I’ve been working with some legendary a– people that I’m super excited about. I can’t name them yet, but just as a callback, they’ll know later. I think the next album is going to be beautiful, from what I know right now.
You have a couple of shows towards the end of the month. What can fans expect from those performances?
Yeah, I have a show with Interpol – the legendary band – and we play the Greek in L.A. I have some headline shows as well. I’m excited. The West Coast is my region. Then, I’m supporting Yachty in Europe, which is going to be awesome — I’m a massive Yachty fan. The West Coast gets a lot of me because I live there, so the West Coast and Denver are the two places I’ve performed the most for some reason. I mean, Denver … I love those mountain kids, they’re sick.
I’m approaching the music that I already made differently. The way that it’s structured, the way that it’s played, I have the band learning the songs again — but in a different format, just because I don’t want the perception to be like “Jean Dawson is rock and roll” or Jean Dawson is this or that. No, I want you to guess. And I don’t want it to be spoon-fed to you. I’m just going to make them a little more interesting and just like… What the f—k is going on? I learned that from watching Björk live a few times, where I’m like, “What the f—k is she doing? This is crazy!”
Then when we head over to Europe – it’s my first time — so we’re going to do all of it, starting in Oslo and ending in Vienna. Growing up Mexican, travel is not something that is normalized, because our parents can’t do it — a lot of [our] parents are undocumented. I’m going to make a lot of music out there too. I’m stoked. And I know my European audience and my U.K. audience is stoked because they were like, “Jean’s never gonna come here,” and now they’re going to travel with us! There’s caravans of people that are going to Stockholm, Cologne, Paris, they’re going to see it all.
How does it feel knowing that you’ve built all of this from the ground up?
Grateful above anything else. I got jaded to it a little bit at first, because I was never popular in school, and I was never deemed as cool. So, when it first starts to happen, I kind of have an [aversion] to it because it doesn’t feel real… until I toured the first time. I saw the Black, the brown, the white kids — it felt like I came home from war every time they saw me. They’re like, “Oh my God!” and I’m like, “Oh, s—t!” I got to see their faces and… if it’s not for [them], I really can’t do this.
Anything that they want from me, I’ll stop in the middle of my food and take photos. They find me at the airport now, and it’s f—ing crazy. Y’all just need to relax, but anything you want, you got it. I’ll sit and talk for two hours with some kid that’s telling me about how they want to start making music, and I’m just like, “Do it!” I don’t like giving advice because I don’t know s—t, but here’s what I could tell you I did wrong, and maybe you can circumvent those wrongs. I feel very blessed above anything else and privileged to be able to have my job just be expressing myself and people relate to it. It’s f—ing crazy.
You mentioned that you weren’t considered cool growing up, and now you’re kinda the epitome of cool for a lot of people. Who are your style icons? Who are your film icons?
I was never cool in high school, because the high school I went to wasn’t hip on Tumblr and I was a Tumblr kid, so the s–t that I knew, they had no idea. I was wearing like post-[A$AP] Rocky style — who is definitely an inspiration of mine, amongst a lot of different things, but style specifically.
Post-Rocky Tumblr was crazy as hell, and I was just showing up to school in San Diego, where nobody gave a f—k about what you’re wearing, in some crazy s—t that I got on eBay. That made me a weirdo. Even when I was getting fits off that — if I was in New York, they’re like, “Oh, s—t, he got that s—t on” — where I was from, it was like, “That’s weird. He reads anime. He always has a girlfriend. He don’t talk to nobody.” I smoked cigarettes in the parking lot like, I had no f—ing cool points.
I go to college and it’s still kind of the same thing. It’s like, frats and stuff like that, which is all fine. But I’m not gonna wear no Sperrys. The Internet gave a place for whatever I am to be deemed as cool. Rocky, he’s the best-dressed person, period, I think ever. I don’t have Rocky’s body, nor Rocky’s paycheck, so I’m not necessarily doing what Rocky does, but he definitely is the most well-dressed person taste level-wise. Also, Kurt Cobain — ‘90s grunge is something that lets me be super lazy and people think that it’s tight.
Then in the film world, music for me is a visual language. If you listen to my songs, most of them are metaphorical. Most of the time I’m talking about something that I can see, but I’ve never seen. I’ve been really, really inspired by movies my entire life. I spent a lot of time by myself, meaning that I spent a lot of time in front of the TV because when you don’t have nobody around, the TV’s gonna keep you company. I guess that was my version of my iPad.
Let’s talk about hype. How does the concept of hype register in your mind? Whether it’s industry hype or hype from fans, how do you keep yourself from getting lost in all the different voices trying to define you?
Hype is important when people are excited about you. When people are excited about you, you should feel excited. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with feeling connected to a moment that feels more potent than most. I also idolized people like Earl Sweatshirt, who, in my opinion – he’s someone who since has become a friend and collaborator — Earl was always able to circumvent the current of something. In one of his albums, he said, “trend-dodging,” and that stuck with me. It’s like, “Why do that when I can do the thing that I actually like?” But I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with trends. I feel like some people just need a sense of identity and they need a little help to get there.
I think the idea of hype or your audience being excited about things is cool. Industry hype — it’s hard to get. It’s easy to get disillusioned by industry hype because everybody at one point is going to have their moment where everybody looks at them, and I feel like if you don’t get caught there, you won’t get Medusa’d. And being Medusa’d, it’s like you’re gonna get turned into stone because you’re watching too hard how people are watching you. I think if you acknowledge it and move on, then you’ll never get stuck trying to chase that high. That’s how you end up the oldest n—-a trying to be cool with young kids. You want that same feeling you felt when you were 21 and brand new. It serves its purpose, but as long as you don’t get caught in it, you’ll be fine.
You’ve accomplished an incredible amount while being independent, where do you stand on the utility of record labels?
People have always asked me, “Why don’t you like labels?” It’s not that I don’t like labels, I just have never been signed because the business that I’ve been offered, I’ve never been aligned with. The things that they offer I don’t necessarily need, and the things that I need, they didn’t necessarily offer. So, I’m not pro-label and I’m not anti-label. I’m anti-bad business. I’ve structured my career in a way where the utility of a label wasn’t paramount. It’s totally fine if you want to go buy your house in cash, but I don’t think you should be mad at the bank for giving you a loan. I’m not saying labels are just banks, but one of the biggest things that they’re able to do is give you utility that you might not be able to get or have.
Since I didn’t need that — not because I came up rich, but because I figured out a business strategy early to circumvent the fact that I don’t need to take out the highest-interest loan — I can get it to a place to where I go to a label and we can see eye to eye on what utilities I need and what numbers they want to see back as a return on investment. I wanted to become an artist with a high ROI, and in order to do that, it’s going to take time.
I haven’t necessarily needed a label on my come-up because I’ve had such a strong foundational team from management. We’ve built a little army. We’re small, but we’re scrappy and we get s—t done, and I don’t think it’s because we’re particularly talented. I think it’s because we care a lot. Now, at this point in my career, I’m most likely going to sign this year to somewhere because I think the growing of our infrastructure is super important — just for the growth of our artist project. My entire team is Jean Dawson. It’s not just me. I’m the face and I’m the word, but we need to grow and in order to do that, there’s going to be some things that we need facilitated that are outside of our abilities.
In the beginning, I didn’t want to do that because I wanted to not only own my albums — I own all my albums — I didn’t want the constraints of “this needs to be successful or else somebody loses their job.” And that’s because I care about other human beings outside of myself. I think that doing it indie is noble and I think it serves its purpose, but at a certain point, you’re gonna hit a glass ceiling. And, also, starting off with the label, you’re gonna hit a glass ceiling. I think you need to get your career to a place where it’s stable enough to where you don’t need a label. Then go to a label. Or get your career to a place where, with or without a label, you’re going to be fine, because then you can add fuel to the fire by having stronger arms. You need to know how to allocate your money.
I got offers from my first album to my last album. Offers have always been on the table, but I’m like, “I’m not gonna waste your time and y’all money because I’m not gonna waste my time, and I’m not gonna waste my sanity trying to chase some money that I know I couldn’t get back.” I guess the best advice I can give to anybody that’s thinking about signing or not signing is to really know what you need. If you need money, go do shows, and if you’re not in a position where your shows pay you, then work more and get to a place where doing shows pays you. And then when you get to a place where you need money to expand, then you can go to a label and know why you need it. For anybody that wants to stay indie, do a lot of shows, sell merch, get really comfortable with direct-to-consumer, and having your audience be proud to pay for what you do.
Jess Glynne can’t believe it’s already the five-year anniversary of her most recent album, 2018’s Always In Between. “It really is mad,” the British pop star tells Billboard of Always In Between, which turned 5 on Oct. 12. “So much has happened in my life, personally and in my career. … It was never the plan for that to be so long. But it’s just, life happens, right? And I think I’m now accepting of that.”
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Over that past half-decade, the 34-year-old singer-songwriter — best known in the U.S. for her smash Clean Bandit collaboration “Rather Be,” but with nine solo top 10 hits on the UK’s Official Charts — experienced profound personal loss as an inadvertent professional catalyst. In 2021, one of Glynne’s close friends passed away, causing the pop star to pause her career and “do a lot of self-work,” she says. Glynne re-emerged from mourning with reevaluated priorities and a revamped team, signing with Roc Nation for management last year and with Republic Records as her stateside label.
With that in mind, Glynne has treated 2023 as an opportunity to ramp up to her third studio album, due out next year. “This year has been a foundation for me to get myself back into the world of music and creativity,” she says. “It’s really been a journey, and it’s been experimental, [but] I feel like I have a really strong vision for this album.”
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Last Friday (Oct. 20), Glynne further previewed that vision with “Friend of Mine,” an absorbing pop anthem with production that pulls from drum-n-bass and vocal runs that remind the world why Glynne is considered such a powerhouse. Written with Jin Jin, Ollie Green and DJ Sub Focus, “Friend of Mine” allows Glynne to ruminate on the changing contours of a relationship: “We said some things and we crossed the line, “ she sings, “but will you still be a friend of mine?”
Glynne says that the main hook of “Friend of Mine” came within a 20-minute period during a studio session. “When you break up with someone, you’re mourning the loss of something, but you still want to be able to have that person in your life, because they mean so much to you,” she explains.
“Friend of Mine” is Glynne’s third single of 2023, following the fuzzed-out clap-along “Silly Me” and the thumping dance offering “What Do You Do?,” which were released in April and July, respectively. Those three songs not only suggest a more reflective tone for Glynne’s upcoming album, but also a diversification of sound, with different slants on her soulful pop bedrock.
“With this album, I feel like this chapter has been quite exciting, and refreshing,” says Glynne. “I feel like I’m in a good space.”
It’s safe to say that RuPaul Charles is one of the busiest celebrities currently working in the business. Alongside hosting and executive producing his Emmy-winning reality series RuPaul’s Drag Race, the drag icon has spent 2023 overseeing the show’s growing number of international spinoffs, hosting his own game show and writing a book.
Now, RuPaul is revealing yet another project that’s been on his growing checklist. On Friday (Oct. 20), the star unveiled Essential Christmas, his brand new holiday album compiling personal favorites off of his past three Christmas projects, while also giving fans a taste of something new on “Baby Doll,” a doo-wop jam that’s perfectly tailored for the holiday season.
When speaking to Billboard about his new project, even RuPaul is surprised at his prolific career in releasing Christmas songs. “I never set out to put out any Christmas records, yet somehow it’s happened that way,” he says. “And I really do love it.”
Below, RuPaul chats with Billboard about the making of his latest album, his favorite Christmas memories, the evolution of his writing his revealing new memoir The House of Hidden Meanings, and the continuing legacy of Drag Race.
Essential Christmas is your fourth Christmas album and your second album to be put out this year, along with every other career that you are currently juggling. How are you finding time to put these projects together?
Well, all I really do is work at this point. [Laughs.] And I really enjoy working. So I work a lot — I usually don’t enjoy sitting around, just hanging out.
Let’s start by talking about the new single off of this album, “Baby Doll.” I love this ‘50s doo-wop style that you were tapping into here. How did you and Freddie go about conceiving this track?
Well, Freddie and I both love 50s doo-wop. And when I think of Christmas music, I think of that era as really being the sound of Christmas, especially of dance-y, fun Christmas. So we started there, and then looked at some current songs — well, at least in the past 15 years — that have that same ’50s beat. That’s when we landed on the Beyoncé’s “Single Ladies.” So the drum pattern is similar to “Single Ladies,” but it has all of the elements of that 50s doo-wop style.
Much of the rest of the album serves as a greatest hits-style compilation of reworked past Christmas songs — how did you go about picking out which songs were going to make the cut and which ones weren’t?
Well, in the streaming era, it’s really all about curating — and not just with music, but with everything in life. People have so many choices that my job, in part, becomes that of a cultural curator. So because of streaming, I figured I would to put all of the most significant songs that I’ve done in one place so it makes it easier for people. But also, I love a happy, fun, dance-y Christmas party. “Baby Doll,” when we first started working on it, was initially kind of dark and melancholy. And as beautiful as that was, after we made a demo of it, I said, “You know what, let’s change this, let’s make it more happy.” So we ended up scrapping the first rendition of it, and the only thing we kept of the original song was the title.
Anyways, my point with all of this is I like Happy Christmas; I enjoy a melancholy Christmas song every now and then, I just didn’t want to have that for this collection.
RuPaul
@sanchezzalba
That’s an interesting larger point you made — the streaming era has fundamentally changed the way we consume music, and you have been very conscious of keeping up with new developments in music. How has the sort of shifting focus of the industry at large changed your approach to your music career?
Well yes, there are a lot of changes that have been made, and I’ve adjusted to those changes. There’s a challenge involved there, and I love a challenge. It’s like a puzzle where you think about what the consumer wants, and then you adjust to that without compromising what your artistic vision is. I love the fact that everything is so available to everyone.
The issue then becomes — and this is true with movies, fashion and every form of art — you need a cruise director who’s going to say, “This here is important, go here.” In my case, I’ve been on the planet for a little while, and I have witnessed the history of pop music, the history of movies, and all these things. So it’s my job to pass that on, to mentor and to curate for people who weren’t here decades ago to say, “Hey, that right there, that’s really important.”
That’s part of why I actually appreciate how sampling has become such a staple in modern pop music, because it is allowing newer generations to understand older references that they might not have been there for.
Yes, exactly, as long as they understand the context, as long as they get the full story. When I was a kid, there were four television channels, and I would watch talk shows like Mike Douglas and Johnny Carson. In watching those shows, I was filled in about what happened before I was born. I got to understand who Ella Fitzgerald was, and Sarah Vaughan, and Joe Williams. Those talk shows ended up curating for me what I had missed by not being here.
The concept of the Christmas album itself has become its own staple that many artists put into their repertoire over the last few decades — what do you think it is about holiday music that resonates so much with audiences?
I think people want to conjure up nostalgia and memories of their childhood or memories of joy. There’s so much darkness in the world, and we get this little window of joy and happiness and color and lights and love and gift-giving and happiness. And I think everybody wants a piece of that — I know I do. I never set out to put out any Christmas records. But somehow it’s happened that way. And I really do love it.
Do you have any strong Christmas memories that come up with that nostalgia when hearing Christmas songs?
Well, I have Christmas memories from the past 30 years — in my childhood, we had none because we didn’t have any money and it was pretty sad. But you know, when I met Georges [LeBar, RuPaul’s husband], things changed because he loved Christmas. The fact that we were together made us want to celebrate it. When you have love in your life, and you have something to celebrate, it becomes a joyous thing. So these past 30 years, I have loved Christmas. And we look forward to it, because we get to either have a great Christmas celebration at home, or we get to travel to some fabulous place. Now, Christmas is lovely for me, so I like to pass that joy along through my Christmas music.
I also wanted to chat just a little bit about your upcoming memoir, The House of Hidden Meanings. In your announcement, you made it very clear that this book will see you at your most vulnerable — as someone who has built up a popular persona to protect your private life, what was the experience like deconstructing that persona in writing this book?
It was not easy, because when living a life in public, you have to be very, very careful. But, to do the kind of memoir I wanted to do, I had to be completely open and free to express myself. Now of course, after it’s put on paper, I can pull back and temper some of the more harsh elements of what I said. But it was very cathartic, because I got to go back to the scene of the crime and also celebrate how fortunate I’ve been in my life, and not just in my career.
Part of how I’m able to do all this work is by just steamrolling ahead, and not getting slowed down by past indiscretions. I keep going and juggle a lot of projects going at once; the process of writing this book allowed me to slow down and look through the grocery basket of of my life and excavate these old memories.
That has to be a very healing process, as well, to get to be able to go back through your life like that.
It is! Most of us try to push down some of those memories, but in those memories lies so much hope and strength and courage. When you can walk through the fire, when you can do an inventory like that, you can move yourself forward, you can alleviate some of the baggage. For example, as a kid, a lot of times we think our parents are fighting because of something we did as a child — but as an adult, you can look back and go, ‘Oh, actually that had nothing to do with me.’
It has been wild to see how everything with Drag Race has grown — 27 Emmy wins, multiple spin offs, a dozen or so international versions, hundreds of careers of drag queens launched. Do you often find yourself kind of thinking about your legacy and the legacy of this show?
I certainly was thinking about that while I was writing the book, because the book allowed me to reflect. But usually, I try to be in the moment and deal with what I have to do in order to get through today. It’d be too distracting to always be thinking about that, and you really couldn’t move forward.
As a huge fan of the show and a pop music nerd, I’ve always wanted to ask you about how you kind of go about selecting songs for lip syncs, because the show does a fantastic job of including a good mix of genres, eras, and vibes.
I mean, I worked in nightclubs on stage for over 30 years, so I just kind of know a good lip sync song when I hear one. Not all songs are lip sync songs. But the criteria for the TV show is to find songs that a queen can perform. And really, that’s the only criteria.
With so much evolution over the last 15 years of the show, it often feels like Drag Race has exponential room to grow. Is there anything that you haven’t necessarily been able to accomplish on the show that you’re hoping to achieve in the next couple of years?
Well, it really doesn’t rest in my hands. What makes the show fresh is that each season, we get these fabulous, courageous artists who come on and share their stories with us and the world. As producers, we do what we can to create the infrastructure, but the new blood and energy coming from our contestants is what makes the show what it is.
There’s a lot of things audiences might not expect when going to see Dicks: The Musical, A24’s new movie musical starring and originally created by comedians Josh Sharp and Aaron Jackson. From a capital-G Gay God (played by Bowen Yang) to emaciated puppets known simply as the “Sewer Boys,” the film revels in its own delightful weirdness from start to finish.
One thing audiences should expect from the new film though is a top-tier soundtrack. Composed by newcomer Karl Saint Lucy (an original collaborator of Sharp and Jackson’s when the show ran at Upright Citizens’ Brigade in New York) and music directed by industry veteran Marius de Vries, the music of Dicks is genuinely thrilling and fun, while further underlining some of the project’s more left-field comedic moments.
As de Vries tells Billboard over Zoom, bringing a balance of movie magic and campy theatricality to the film was vital. “We wanted to turn this into a movie that worked as a movie, but we knew that some of the theatricality of it all, both for comedic purposes and other purposes, was our friend,” he says. “So, while the material itself was heavily extended and revised, the ethos of the original was preserved in a way that I think was healthy.”
Below, Billboard chats with Saint Lucy and de Vries about how they each got involved with Dicks, what it was like translating the show’s absurdist humor into genuinely good music, and how Megan Thee Stallion‘s rap number nearly didn’t come together.
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I know it’s been a very long road to get here, so how are you two feeling about the film’s imminent release?
Marius de Vries: I feel fantastic, extremely relieved that it’s finished. It was a long journey in so many ways, with Karl having been involved in the original stage show, and me having met the twins seven years or so ago when the project was actually up and running somewhere else. There have been many twists and turns along the way, and many periods where it looked as if it wouldn’t get made. We got a burst of momentum, and we realized it was getting made, but we had to make it really fast. But then it kind of slowed down in post-production, and it took quite a long time to get it right. With all of that, I’m just thrilled to see it up on a big screen in front of an audience, and not on my desk.
Karl, take me back to the beginning of your partnership with Josh and Aaron onthe original stage show F–king Identical Twins in 2014. How early on in the process did they reach out to you to put the music together?
Karl Saint Lucy: Very early on. I knew Josh through Story Pirates [a comedy theater program], and I think that he and Aaron had just been set up as comedy partners at UCB when they first approached me. I was oversharing about some gay drama that happened while I was on tour with this children’s show, and they were like, “Oh, we’ve gotta get this person involved.” So they approached me, and over the course of something like six weeks, we got together in rehearsal studios at CAP21, and hashed this out. They came with the big beats of the story and most of the lyrics, but yeah, it was a very easy process.
What was your initial reaction to those initial story beats?
Karl: Oh, I was sold from the beginning. I think one of the things that worked early on about our partnership was that Josh and Aaron and I have always had a very similar comedic sensibility. Although I will say, when we were working on it, I hadn’t seen any of the staging. In the original show, there’s a scene with Josh and Aaron in a wheelchair f–king at the restaurant, and when I saw that for the first time, I was like, “Wow, I can confidently say that I have never seen this on a stage before.”
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Marius, you brought something up I wanted to mention; 20th Century Fox bought the rights to F–king Identical Twins back in 2016 and planned to release it; that stalled in production for six years before A24 came in and bought the rights out from them. What was that elongated process like for you two?
Marius: Yeah, I was immediately aware that we had a big challenge turning something that was a 30-minute piece of cabaret into a feature-length script. To be honest, that’s what I relished about the task. I could see a way forward, and they’d done a great job on the first pass of the script. So I was excited to get involved. I was somewhat skeptical about it having a home at Fox. I imagined what would happen is, we’d get a little bit of progress going, and then someone upstairs would finally wake up, realize what was going on and shut it down. Then, of course, the Disney acquisition happened, so that was, you know, a non-starter. With the greatest of respect to my friends at Disney, this is not a Disney film.
Can you imagine if this was released on Disney?
Marius: It’s kind of like Snow White, in a sense, right? In that, I guess, it’s got songs and a story? [Laughs.] Honestly, thank God we hit that brick wall and ended up at A24. The most important thing about the relationship with A24, which has been fantastic, is that they’ve been supportive of all of our creative instincts with no restraint at all — up until it came to considering what the title of the movie should be. Then there was a fairly bigger discussion about that, but that happened quite late in the process, and it took a little bit of getting used to; it’s like having a 7-year-old child who’s called something, and then all of a sudden, you have to start calling them something else.
As you mentioned, part of this process meant adding in more and more songs to the film, one of which is “Out-Alpha the Alpha,” Megan Thee Stallion’s blistering rap performance. How did you go about making this song that feels entirely different from a lot of the rest of the musical theater-specific melodies used throughout Dicks?
Marius: Well, when we were doing the additional writing and construction of material specifically for the film, which was well-over half of it, not including the score, we didn’t have any idea who was going to be cast as Gloria. So, we just wrote the song for a random actress that we imagined might be the kind of person that would be cast as Gloria. That person was not Megan Thee Stallion at all, so, when the casting conversation rolled out, and we learned that it would be Megan, we had this song — which was, I thought, really promising, but was in no way suitable for the force of nature that is Megan.
So, we had to very, very quickly go back to the drawing board, because it had to be completely re-styled, and it had to be done unbelievably quickly. She had a very limited amount of time to construct and record the rap, rehearse it on set, and shoot it. All of that process was very condensed into four or five days. So, we had to kind of pause efforts on all fronts at a very late stage in rehearsal, lock ourselves away, and come up with some sort of musical skeleton that we felt she wouldn’t find offensively inappropriate in terms of what was suitable for her to sing.
We sent over something that we thought was embarrassingly rough, but she was great. She rolled her sleeves up, turned the vocal around in a day. Then it was time to rehearse it; the choreographers had about 12 hours to put the whole routine together. The whole thing was an immense panic, and there were certainly moments where we thought that we weren’t going to pull it off. But that’s the thing with this film; there were many moments where we felt it was impossible, but as the film teaches us, nothing is impossible if you force it not to be, to paraphrase.
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Another song I love is “All Love Is Love,” which I think is a perfect send-up of the anthemic, Broadway finale number. I’m curious, Karl, what was the sort of ethos behind creating this song?
Karl: Yeah, this is one of the songs that, in some way shape or form, existed in the original — though, of course, everything that we brought over from the original stage show has been transmogrified within an inch of its life. But for me, this one is about queer joy. Getting to say whatever I want on stage in a very queer setting is always a lot of fun, and providing that opportunity for other queer people is huge for me. I remember, too, that we were in a discussion about whether or not we would have the lyrics on screen with the bouncing ball, and I’m so glad we went with it, because that was a feature of the original stage show that I felt really worked — we were implicating the audience in singing this refrain.
Marius: Yeah, retaining some of some of those extremely theatrical elements from the original was key to the way we approached this.
Are there any songs that stand out to you two from Dicks that were extremely fun to write and work on?
Karl: I think “Sewer Song” was the one, for me. It was so much fun, and it was such a challenge because you’re writing three different verses that kind of sound like they could be a song on their own, but you’re also negotiating everyone’s range, you’re making everyone’s voice is sitting well. That’s the ultimate song, to me, because they had a joke at the end of the stage show about “being in a sewer that smells like piss,” and I just was like, “I have no idea what to do. So I guess this will be a samba at the end.” To me, that song is a good example of the ways in which we just kind of went for it, and didn’t necessarily always have a reason for what we were doing — and that works really well.
Marius: Yeah, let’s take these three completely incompatible melodies and have them all sing it at the same time, and somehow make it work. That was an adventure for sure.
Marius, as someone who has music directed a number of classic movie musicals like Moulin Rouge and La La Land, how different is it working on a project like Dicks that tends to poke fun at the artform itself?
Marius: It’s very refreshing. I love that self-awareness and the surface lack-of-seriousness that is actually disguising a real sincerity. These songs wouldn’t work if they weren’t pretty great, and if they weren’t emotionally sincere. The artifice to which you’re drawing attention, that sits on top of that, wouldn’t work if the structure underneath it was sketchy or shoddy. It’s really a great testament to Karl in particular that it works as well as it does. Plus, it did allow us to poke fun at ourselves while we were in the process of making it, which is really thrilling and liberating.
Karl: I’ll also say, for myself, I’m really grateful that for my debut project, I get to share something where I had such creative freedom. I’m really grateful to Marius for giving us the opportunity to do that.
It’s also great music that also isn’t overly referential. You’re allowing the songs to speak for themselves in the musical world that you’ve created, instead of making a series of inside jokes about musical theater itself. Why was that an important part of this process?
Karl: I think that’s part of the DNA that Josh and Aaron and I brought to this, because we came at this from a diagonal. There was a focus on the characters and, as Marius said, the emotional truth of the moment. That is kind of what grounds a lot of Larry’s work as well, which is why he was exactly right to direct this movie, because he knows how to really dig in to the joke and also unearth those emotional moments.
The film is getting very positive early reviews. What do you hope audiences take away from their experience of watching Dicks: The Musical?
Karl: I just really hope people have fun. I love movie musicals, and I obviously have a perspective on what I want movie musicals to look like. But I hope that this inspires more work like this.
In his song “That Ain’t Country,” queer artist Adam Mac proudly declared to his detractors that, if they tried that in his small town, they would be met with a community that supports him unconditionally. “The people in the town where I was raised/ They love me/ And they got my back,” he defiantly proclaimed.
Yet over the past week, Mac watched as his theory was tested in real time. “I couldn’t help but feel embarrassed that I would preach this love and acceptance that my hometown has had for me, and then immediately feel a little betrayed in the moment,” Mac tells Billboard over a Zoom call. Dressed in a wide-brimmed hat and a lavender pointelle polo, the singer sighs. “This has been the most insane emotional whiplash that I have ever experienced in my life.”
Last Thursday (Sept. 21), Mac announced in an emotional video posted across his social media channels that he would be canceling his scheduled appearance as the headliner of the Logan County Tobacco and Heritage Festival’s Grand Finale concert. The reason behind the cancellation, Mac told his fans, was that there were concerns he would be “promoting homosexuality or sexuality in a family friendly environment” with his performance. “I’m really sad about it,” he said in the clip, fighting back tears. “I really, really wanted to be there.”
But just one week later, the situation has dramatically shifted for the rising country singer. In a post to her Instagram Stories on Thursday (Sept. 28), country superstar Maren Morris announced that Mac would be joining RuPaul’s Drag Race alum Shea Couleé as an opener for her exclusive, fans-only sold-out show in Chicago next week. “Like I said,” Mac says, laughing. “Emotional whiplash.”
As he reflects on the chaotic week he’s experienced, Mac briefly looks as though the information is just setting in for the first time. “It started as something so disappointing and embarrassing and sad, and very quickly turned into the most insane amount of love I have ever been flooded with in my life,” he says, giddy with excitement. “It’s led to one of the coolest things I am ever going to do.”
Mac originally hails from Russellville, Kentucky, which he describes as a town small enough that “we pretty much all know each other.” Leaving home at 22 to chase his dream as a singer-songwriter in Nashville, Mac spent years writing and self-releasing music to try and make a name in an industry that wasn’t necessarily open to the idea of an openly gay country star.
But eventually, people began to take notice. In September 2022, Mac’s music video for “Disco Cowboy” premiered on CMT, where it remained the station’s No. 1 video of their 12-Pack Countdown for four weeks. In March, Mac posted a clip to TikTok of an emotional ballad dedicated to his mother called “Boy Like Me”; the video has since been viewed over 300,000 times. In April, he was highlighted alongside Shelly Fairchild, Sonia Leigh and Angie K at the Country Music Hall of Fame’s Country Proud showcase.
With a performance at CMA Fest in June, and bookings around Nashville and Los Angeles throughout the rest of the summer, 2023 officially felt like it was Mac’s year — especially with the release of his album Disco Cowboy in May. “What we created is something that feels so much like me. I felt like I finally found my home, where I don’t have to sacrifice being ‘too gay’ or loving this sound,” he says. “It just felt like the perfect marriage to be able to tell my story and do it in a way that that felt good to me.”
When the Logan County Chamber of Commerce reached out to ask Mac to headline their annual Tobacco and Heritage festival, he says it felt like a full-circle moment. “The initial process was just so warm and welcoming,” he recalls. “It felt like this big ‘welcome back home’ after a crazy year of successes.”
That’s when the shift started. Two days after the festival announced Mac as the headliner for their Grand Finale Concert and Fireworks in a since-deleted Facebook post, the singer received a call from the person who booked him for the show, a woman Mac says he’s “known my whole life.” She said that the board members at the Chamber of Commerce had some concerns.
“Some board members wanted her to call in ensure that I would not be ‘promoting homosexuality in a family friendly environment, and they wanted to make sure that I knew that this was not a Pride festival,” he recalls. “It just felt like they were telling me, ‘We know you’re gay, just please don’t be too gay. This is a family event,’ as if being gay is inherently sexual.”
The call was prompted not only by board members concerned about queerness represented on their stage — a number of townsfolk, both online and in person at the Chamber of Commerce, made it clear that they intended to protest Mac’s performance while it was happening. “I wanted it to be this homecoming — that vision did not include protesters with signs and pitchforks behind me,” he recalls. “And so I just told her, ‘I just think it’s best for us to pull out of the show.’”
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Having “never cancelled a show,” Mac felt it was only fair to explain why he wouldn’t be performing at the festival in his own video. Sporting a Maren Morris “lunatic country music person” t-shirt, the singer filmed himself explained the entire situation to his fans, and posted it across all of his social media accounts. “I just wanted people to see me and see that I was genuinely hurt to do this.”
The message stuck. Immediately, the video went viral, with fans, both from and outside of Russellville sharing their disappointment that Mac would be treated this way and offering him their support. The feedback also reached the Logan County Chamber of Commerce — Mac received a call from the Chamber after his video went live, saying that there were “10 times the [number of] people that were originally saying that they would protest the show, now saying they can’t believe that we would cancel your show.”
It was a validating moment for Mac, especially when those fans continued to share his the message, which eventually reached country stars like Morris, Kelsea Ballerini, Lindsay Ell and Brandy Clark . “You are loved. I’m sorry this happened but glad you’re sharing it here,” Morris commented on his Instagram post.
“It was all these divas who I have f–king looked up to, and who have been allies to our community, and who have been there for us when no one else was,” he says. “Not only did my community show up for me, but this music community, this country community also showed up for me.”
But the fun was not yet over. Just a few days after his video went viral, Mac received a call from a number he didn’t recognize — which he knew meant “either they want some money, or they’re about to give me a hell of a lot of money.” When he answered, a representative from CAA was on the other end, saying that his name had come up in a meeting discussing openers for Morris’ show at Joe’s on Weed Street in Chicago, and wondering if he would be interested in performing. “I literally collapsed,” Mac says, still stunned. “I’m still pinching myself.”
Between massive artists like Morris showing him support, and organizations like CMT inviting him to perform at their Equal Access showcase, Mac says he’s never felt more supported by the country music industry. But he also recognizes that country music is also currently fractured; progressive country acts — led largely by women, queer folks and people of color — are advocating for change, while more conservative stars are actively appealing to a right-wing fanbase. Morris herself has expressed her intent to essentially leave the genre after years of fighting against its general failures of inclusivity.
“That is the climate that has been created in our nation, and so it gets very clearly reflected in country music,” he says. But Mac remains hopeful that country music, as a whole, can change for the better. “It’s easy to jump on the bandwagon of hating someone or something because it’s different,” he says. “But I have seen, even just in this situation, that there is so much more love and that there is so much more to audiences than we give them credit for.”
It’s fitting, then, that Mac’s song “That Ain’t Country” also serves as an anti-gatekeeping anthem for the country industry. Lyrics like “Ain’t who you take to bed/ Ain’t in that small town draw/ Yeah it’s in what you’re saying/ Not the way you talk” make his assertion clear; bigotry and hatred don’t buy longevity, and those standing in the way of progress won’t ultimately succeed. Lucky for him, the gates are now opening wide — and Mac is ready to step through.
When you bear one of the most well-known surnames in Italian music, the expectations of others (record companies, the public, the press) can be an unbearable burden. Yet one of the immediately noticeable qualities of 25-year-old Matteo Bocelli is an innate serenity, a perfect emanation of those polite manners that contributed to making his father Andrea Bocelli an icon of music and style famous in Italy and around the world.
For the Bocellis, music is a family matter. It was his father who launched Matteo’s career five years ago with the duet “Fall on Me,” a single from the album Sì, which debuted atop the Billboard 200. Not bad for his first public appearance.
Now Matteo Bocelli is ready to fly with his own wings. And he wants to do it in his own distinctive way: In the 12 tracks (14 in the deluxe version) of his debut album Matteo (out now via Capitol Records/Universal Music), his father’s operatic vocal style gives way to a clear pop approach that encompasses Ed Sheeran-style ballads (his great idol) as well as uptempo songs.
How did he come to find his own sound? How is he building his career? Billboard Italy met Matteo in Milan shortly before the album’s release.
Your artistic “baptism” was five years ago with the single “Fall on Me” in duet with your father. What did that moment represent for you, and what have the last five years of your life been like?
“Fall on Me” was unquestionably an important start. It was the spark that started everything, and these years were full of emotions and beautiful experiences. The song opened many doors, for example the possibility of signing a contract with Capitol Records in Los Angeles. The team supported me right from the start, allowing me to work on the project in the best way until reaching this first album. “Fall on Me” was a unique experience. Now it’s time to continue on my own two feet and start a new path with a project that I feel is totally mine.
Despite what one might expect from your surname, your project has a clear pop dimension. Over the years, how have you honed the sound you wanted to achieve?
I have always been close to opera and classical music, but the music I sang at home was pop. But that doesn’t mean you know exactly what you want. You need to work on things, to try, to experiment. These years were very useful in finding the sound I’m comfortable with. In recent years we wrote about a hundred songs, then we selected 14 for the [deluxe] album.
Talking about pop music, who are your idols from the past and the present?
I always say Ed Sheeran. He is not only an incredible artist, but also a beautiful person — at least that’s what I perceived the times I met him. Yes, I could say he’s an idol of mine. Plus, I’m a romantic, and he’s the king of ballads! But at the same time, he’s been able to achieve a huge success with more uptempo songs too. That has always been a dream of mine: to have slow and sentimental songs but also be able to make people jump at concerts. However, I have always listened more to the music of the past, especially Lionel Ritchie, Elton John, Queen, as well as the great Italian artists.
The album starts with “For You,” an uptempo track. Why do you think it is the best opener for the project?
In that case, I asked the record company for advice. Capitol Records focused a lot on that song. When I made a demo of it, I immediately understood that it was a song in which I felt really good from a vocal point of view. Also I perceived it as a “top” song for concerts.
“Chasing Stars,” written by Ed Sheeran with his brother Matthew, talks about their relationship with their father. It seems like a song tailor-made for you.
I met Ed when he released “Perfect Symphony,” the duet he did with my father. He then sent me a couple of ideas. “Chasing Stars” was the one that struck me the most. I was struck by the melody, because Ed has an unmistakable touch, and the message, perfect for my story. Even when a song is written by someone else, you have to see yourself in what you sing. When you sing certain words, you have to feel them. Yes, that seemed like a song written especially for me. We have in common the fact that we have a family that loves music and has encouraged their children to learn about it.
The songs are mostly sung in English but some are in Italian. Why did you want to use both languages?
Having signed the contract with Capitol Records in the United States, I also have to make music in English. But the deep reason why I signed with them is that I grew up singing in both Italian and English. So it has always been my desire to sing in English, and I knew that label would give me many opportunities to collaborate with great international songwriters. At the same time, it is important not to forget your origins. I consider Italian lyrics the deepest and most beautiful in the entire history of music. English-speaking songwriters consider us almost saccharine, excessive. But I think that’s the beauty of our language. We are romantic, there is nothing we can do about it!
Your project has a strong international projection. What idea of “Italianness” do you want to convey abroad?
To put it simply, I’m very proud to be Italian. I hope that beyond our national borders, people can appreciate the songs I sing in our language. Italy is so loved around the world; there is no need for Matteo Bocelli to push that.
In 2019 you performed at the Sanremo Festival in a duet with your father. Now your album is out: Is it the right moment to go there again, as a contestant this time?
It’s a question they’ve been asking me ever since… [Laughs] I understand that in Italy, the Sanremo Festival has a fundamental importance, it is the best thing an artist can aspire to. And I don’t deny that it would be a great emotion for me too to go on that stage — not alongside my father as a guest, but on the frontline as a contestant. But in my opinion you must go there when you are truly convinced, with a song that really identifies you.
Last year you collaborated with Sebastián Yatra. Do you also wish to step into the Latin market too?
One of my biggest fanbases is the Mexican one, so it’s important to keep an eye on that market. But you have to get there starting from the assumption that you must do what you like. I will never [do] something just because that’s what the market expects. If a collaboration with another Latin artist were to happen and convince me, then why not?
In the early 2000s, while the alt-rock band Switchfoot was working on their fourth album, The Beautiful Letdown, the group flew to New York to perform for its new label, Sony Music. Midway through one of the cuts from that record, “Dare You to Move,” a top Sony exec walked out of the performance — and frontman Jon Foreman could hear him muttering, “Why do you keep signing this expletive-expletive-expletive?”
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As the band prepares to release a deluxe version of The Beautiful Letdown, which has sold more than three million copies since its release 20 years ago, Foreman recalls the impact of that moment. “That is a pivotal point for us as a band,” he says. “We had a choice: “Do we listen to him, or do we say, ‘Forget him, we’re going to do what we think is right, and we believe in these songs? That’s where we came from. That’s what that album in 2003 represents — an album that almost didn’t exist at all.” (Sony declined to comment on Foreman’s recollections.)
By phone from the band’s San Diego studio, where Switchfoot is rehearsing for a tour on which they will play The Beautiful Letdown in its entirety, Foreman discusses the “Our Version” version of the album, which dropped in August — as well as covers of its tracks performed by the Jonas Brothers, Jon Bellion, Twenty One Pilots‘ Tyler Joseph and others, that fill out the deluxe edition due Sept. 15.
As you rehearse for this tour, playing all those songs again from The Beautiful Letdown, what are you learning about the album?
We’ve grown up as a band, learned how to play our instruments, learned how to play together. It really has been enjoyable to step back in time and remember who we were and what we were singing about and how we were playing.
What were some of the technical challenges of recreating a record from 2003?
It’s all the happy accidents that are funny that are hard to recreate — but we leaned into that. At the beginning of one of the [original] tracks, “Ammunition,” my friend, Matt Beckley, a producer, happened to be in the room when we were tracking that. His laugh is the last thing you hear at the beginning of that track. We tried our best to imitate that, and I said, “Whoa, whoa, whoa,” and called Matt and said, “Can you send us a track of yourself laughing?” So it’s his laugh again. We tried to jump back exactly into the headspace that we were in when we had made the record the first time.
Why did you decide to re-record an “Our Version” of the album?
We all were kind of talking about the album and we thought, “What if we made the album, but this time, instead of for [the Sony exec], let’s record it for everyone who’s supported us the last 23 years — for everyone who’s sung along with these songs?”
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So did you wind up making the album that Sony wanted, back in 2003, or did you release the one Switchfoot had planned to make all along?
The album that came out was entirely our dream — the dream that, with John Fields producing, we loved, and that certain unnamed executive at the top of Sony Records hated. We were relegated to [Sony-owned distributor] Red Ink. It was actually the best thing that could’ve happened to us, because not only did everyone at Red Ink believe in this album and fight for it, it galvanized why we do what we do, and the idea that we don’t play music for the people who don’t understand it. We’re not for everyone, we’re going to be for ourselves. Irrespective of whether people get it or not, we’re going to sing our songs.
Did you wind up working with that Sony executive again?
Fast forward maybe a year and a half, the album had sold 2 million copies, and the same guy comes back, all smiles and handshakes and pictures, with platinum albums and a lot of talk about how “I believed in you guys all along.”
How much did Taylor Swift‘s “Taylor’s Version” re-recordings over the past few years influence Switchfoot’s “Our Version”?
It didn’t have much to do with it. But Taylor has covered two songs from The Beautiful Letdown, one without us and one I got to sit in on. She’s been very supportive.
Tell me about sitting in with her.
We were playing a smaller arena in Arizona [in 2011], and she invited me to come over and play “Meant to Live.” Our friends Needtobreathe were opening the night, and I was struck by just how poised she was on and off stage. She was in complete control, not only onstage but offstage. Everything was accounted for. It’s really fun to see this [Eras] tour blowing up for her.
For the deluxe version, how much input did you have on the reimagined versions from the other artists?
We gave them completely no direction. Some said, “I want you to play the instruments,” and some, like OneRepublic, just wanted to do a more traditional duet. I loved all of it. Jonas Brothers wanted to work with John Fields, who produced the original version. I called Fields and he said, “Oh, is this the talk when you’re going to be the A&R guy and tell me what we’re supposed to do with the track?” And I was like, “Nope! I’m just calling to say hi. I could care less.”
What do you hope both parts of the new version accomplish?
It’s such an odd project, to be honest. Being a songwriter, writing new songs is my favorite thing in the world to do, but to look back and celebrate where we’ve been — that’s what this project is aiming for.
Last week, French music streaming service Deezer joined with the Universal Music Group to roll out what they called an artist-centric music streaming model, which they said was “designed to better reward the artists and the music that fans value the most.” It’s the result of a six-month partnership announced in March that promised to examine the current “pro-rata” streaming royalties model, in which artists and labels are paid according to their share of streams out of the available pool of revenue generated by streaming services. They aim to identify a new way of paying out that revenue, at a time when streaming service catalogs have exploded to north of 200 million tracks and fraud and streaming manipulation have proliferated on platforms.
The artist-centric model, which Deezer says will begin rolling out Oct. 1 in France for UMG artists with plans to expand it to more content owners and additional territories, relies on a “boost” model that rewards artists who are actively searched for by users, as well as those who maintain a level of 1,000 streams per month from at least 500 unique accounts — what Deezer/UMG are terming “professional artists.” And it has generated plenty of scrutiny from many corners of the industry, despite its initial limited scope.
Here’s how it works: Under the “old” pro-rata model — or the one still in effect at every major streaming service — one stream equals one play, and the total number of plays is divided up by artists and labels according to how many they accrue. Under this “artist-centric” model, if an artist qualifies as a “professional artist,” one stream would get “boosted” to count as two plays; and if a user actively searches for or clicks on an artist’s song, that stream would get “boosted” to count as two plays. If a user actively searches for or clicks on a song by a “professional artist,” that stream counts as four plays when the pool of revenue gets divided up. As part of this, “non-artist noise” content — essentially, things like the sound of rain or a washer/dryer that contains no music — will be removed from eligibility from the royalty pool, and eventually deleted from the service altogether, to be replaced by in-house noise uploaded by Deezer that will not generate revenue.
That’s the headline change, but there are many other elements to this switch as well, some designed to root out streaming fraud or bad actors gaming the system, and others that are designed to promote human artists at the expense of general audio. Deezer also released some statistics to support the changes, including that “non-artist noise” content accounts for 2% of all streams; that in 2022, 7% of all streams on its platform were fraudulent; and that, contributing to the clutter on the platform, 97% of all uploaders to Deezer generated just 2% of total streams. All told, Deezer eventually expects the changes to increase artist royalties by as much as 10%.
Still, there is work to be done for the service to implement this more widely. Deezer CEO Jeronimo Folgueira says the company is actively looking to bring more partners aboard, and expects to have more content providers on the system by the time of the Oct. 1 launch, with a full rollout with all providers across all territories intended by next year. In the meantime, “the royalty structure of labels and artists that are not signed on yet will not be affected during the transition period,” he says. The model will also initially only cover recorded music royalties, though he says “our goal is to include publishing royalties as well and will begin discussions with publishers in the near future.”
Folgueira spoke to Billboard to explain how it all works and break down how the companies created the thresholds and distinctions that underpin the new system.
Billboard: Can you walk me through the last six months of how you guys got to this point?
Jeronimo Folgueira: Deezer has been promoting a change in the model for more than four years, advocating for UCPS [User-Centric Payment System]. UCPS is much better than the old model that we had, but we figured that there’s a better way of implementing this, which is artist-centric. Artist-centric is better than UCPS, which is why we were able to get this one over the finish line, whereas with UCPS there was a lot more resistance.
Basically, given our background, it was obvious that we would engage in reviewing the system. And Universal has, in the last few months — since Lucian Grainge took on this topic personally very strongly — supported changing the model to artist-centric, so we announced a collaboration with them where we looked into the data with a consultant that they hired to see, basically, what would be the right way of moving the model.
It started from different parts. We came from a UCPS base, Universal came from an artist-centric point of view that was different from where we ended up, and we tried to find something that would make sense and would be fair for the whole industry and achieve the benefits of what we wanted while minimizing the negative impact. Because with UCPS, there were some really good artists who got negatively affected. But with the artist-centric model we’ve created now, basically all professional artists creating valuable content will get a benefit. Some get a huge benefit, and some get a small benefit, but creators making high-value content all benefit. With UCPS, there was more shuffling for artists.
That’s why in this first version of artist-centric, we’re focusing mostly on eliminating noise from the royalty pool and giving a boost to professional artists that create valuable content that users love and want. We’ve been working on this for months, working on different versions of the model, running data to make sure that we eliminated the wrong incentive and created the right reward for the right content and behavior.
What do you expect the effect to be?
Overall, the pool doesn’t really change, it changes the distribution of the pool. But effectively what we’re doing is reducing the economic incentive for fraud and gaming the system. We’re eliminating the payouts to pure noise, and we’re boasting the payouts to real artists. So effectively there will be a shift of money from low-quality content — or not even real music — back to real, professional artists. So what we see is that producers of valuable content will get an uplift, on average, of around 10%.
What does a “boost” mean?
The boost is for a professional artist — and we consider that to be if you have more than 500 listeners a month and more than 1,000 streams. The threshold is very low, and any small, independent artist will reach those levels, so as long as you have a minimum amount of a following and fans, you’ll get to that boost. And if people search for your song, or add it to favorites or have it in a playlist, it gets another boost. So it basically means a stream of a song from one of those artists will count four times for the pool system. So it’s still a pool system, but those streams will count four times. Whereas rain, for example, will count zero, and functional music will count once. So they get boosted 4x for producing content that people actually love.
And where does the extra money come from?
The pool is the same, but the way that pool gets distributed is based on the share of streams. But that’s where the boost comes from. Noise will not get paid at all, so that’s where some of the money comes from; functional music, or music from artists that do not qualify for the threshold, will get paid less; and then artists that create valuable content will get the boost, therefore they’ll get paid more.
How did you come to the “professional artists” distinction?
We looked at different thresholds. We wanted to create a threshold that was transparent and fair, so that a small, up-and-coming artist could get there, because we want to support new up-and-coming artists and independent artists. So it was very important that this was something that was good for all artists, not just artists that were signed to a major record label. With that threshold, even though a lot of the artists on the platform will not qualify to get that boost, the majority of the streams actually do. If an artist doesn’t get to 1,000 streams and 500 listeners a month, they cannot make a living [through streaming] regardless of what the payout of the model is. So you’re not technically a professional. And any up-and-coming artist that is rising up gets to those levels pretty quickly. You don’t need big marketing budgets or promotions behind that. We’re talking about levels that are relatively easy to achieve once you are a professional and do this seriously.
But wouldn’t those smallest artists need that money the most?
Yeah, but we’re talking about people that are making €3 or €5 euros per month; it doesn’t make any real difference. It will not change anything at all. That’s why the threshold is so low — that economically it makes no impact whatsoever.
What effect would this have on playlisting? If you click on an artist’s song, they qualify for the boost — is that just if you’re looking at an artist’s page and seeking out their music? Or if you click on their song that’s first on a playlist?
If a song is on a playlist, it will always get the active boost. You would not get it if it’s algorithmically pushed to you. So if you’re listening to [algorithmic playlist] Flow, for example, and you discover new songs on Flow, you haven’t really chosen them, so those would not get the boost. If you come across a song [on an algorithmic playlist] and favorite it, that would get the boost.
What do you define as “non-artist noise”? Is there a threshold there?
We wanted to be very fair and transparent and start in a very simple way, which is noise that has no music at all. Right now what we are going to stop paying, and eventually deleting, will be pure white noise — the sound of a washing machine, or rain, but without any music or anything else. That is the first stage, because it’s very easy to detect and very fair.
Then, there are different layers. Once it has music, then obviously it will not have the artist boost, most likely, and will probably not get to the active boost, but it will still be paid and still be there. So it won’t qualify for the boost, but it will still be paid and be available. Later on we’ll look into how that evolves and make sure that people aren’t abusing it, and if it becomes an issue then we will address it. It has to be a model that gets reviewed regularly, the same way that the Google search algorithm gets reviewed regularly to make sure that it’s always giving you the most relevant results, to make sure that there’s no gaming of the system, that it’s actually helping real artists.
What we’re trying to do here is support the creation of high-value content from real artists. And therefore we will continue to monitor it. Initially, it’s a very simple execution: pure noise gets kicked out, but anything with music will stay for the time being.
Where do you draw that line between what is “functional music” and what is artistry?
Right now, we don’t, because it’s a very difficult line to draw. If we find a way to draw that line then we will, but it has to be fair and it has to be very transparent. It cannot be subjective. We haven’t found a rule that is fair and transparent to define what is functional music and what is not, so that’s why we decided not to go there and went for the boost instead. Because what we see is, if it’s functional music, people don’t really add it to a playlist or follow it or search it or put it in favorites. So usually, things that are functional music, by nature, will not qualify for the boost. So the boost is basically a smart way of letting the behavior of the users boost what is real, high-value content, versus what is purely functional music.
Is this also about AI protection? Protecting “real” artists vs. AI artists?
Initially, we’re not taking any steps against AI. The model is not designed against it. However, it is a model that is built in a flexible way that can protect real artists from AI in the future, and what we said is that the real artist boost should be applied to real, human artists, so if it’s a machine it should not qualify for the active boost.
Your press release also mentioned a “stricter provider policy” that you guys are implementing. What does that entail?
Basically right now, like every other DSP, we allow people to upload music through these do-it-yourself [distribution] platforms; there’s plenty of them. And there’s a lot of content being uploaded. What we want to do is make sure that we get content that is valuable. We don’t want more noise getting uploaded to the platform and we want to be very strict with fraud and gaming [the system]. There are certain providers where more than 50% of what they uploaded we had to take down because of fraud. So we’re going to potentially block those providers altogether. We do not want to be used to game the system. Until now we had been allowing everything, and only when something gets detected as fraud did we deal with it. Now we want to be a lot more strict with what we allow to be uploaded.
But as you were saying, so much gets uploaded every day. How do you screen that?
AI. There will be clear rules, and then the machine will be screening all content that gets uploaded, and once you get to certain thresholds where they’re providing too much content that is detected as fraudulent or gaming the system, then we will just block them, the same way that Google will penalize anyone that is gaming their SEO and will remove them from search results for at least six months. There are penalties for bad behavior. Right now in streaming there are no penalties for bad behavior, and we’re trying to introduce them, the same way that Google and many other platforms do.
What other practices are you instituting to combat this fraud?
One really important aspect of eliminating the fraud element is we’re going to put a cap on the impact of a single user on the pool of streams: only 1,000 streams per user per month will count. So if you listen to 2,000 streams, then your streams will count half. That way, you cannot have one account racking up 10,000 streams and stealing money from the pool. A normal human will consume anywhere between 400 and 600 tracks per month, so we’ve set the threshold at 1,000. At 1,000, more than 90% of the behavior is captured and then only the outliers go beyond that. Some of it is not fraudulent — it’s usually young kids listening to K-pop or rock day and night. But the behavior of the fraudulent accounts, or gaming the system, happens by hacking accounts and generating huge amounts of streams to steal money from the pool. So by putting a cap of 1,000 streams per user, we are eliminating the economic incentive. You’d have to fake or hack a lot of accounts to have an economic impact, whereas right now with only a handful of accounts you can have a massive impact on the pool.
That 400-600 tracks, that was a result of your research?
Yes, our data. We have 10 million monthly subscribers, and over the last 15 years it’s pretty statistically significant that a normal human will listen to something in the range of 500 tracks. It really depends on age; the younger you are, the more tracks you listen to. But generally speaking, in normal human behavior, everything will be captured below 1,000 streams. If you’re above 1,000 streams you’re an outlier, and we don’t want those outliers or gamers of the system to have an impact on the pool.
What other tweaks are possible as you guys start to roll this out?
One thing we left out that we looked at was potentially adding another layer, which was streaming time. So instead of calculating it by stream, calculating it by the time you spend streaming a song. But what we saw is that with the current boost, the impact is already captured. So if you added listening time on top of the current layers that we created, the impact is minimal, because if you love a song, you usually listen to the whole song. We explored it, looked at the data and decided it wasn’t needed, and we wanted to keep it as simple as possible. But we haven’t completely ruled out listening time.
The other thing we haven’t completely ruled out is moving more and more towards a user-centric approach. Right now we cap things at 1,000 streams. But that can come down eventually to make it closer and closer to a UCPS approach. So that’s another variable that we’ll want to keep an eye on. And the other one is the threshold for a “professional artist.” We need to make sure that the 1,000 streams and 500 listeners a month is the right level and that it doesn’t have negative consequences. Because we really care about new, independent up-and-coming artists. We want to support them. So we will be reviewing that and its impact on new artists as well.
What might make you lower that threshold?
We have looked at so much data, which is why I feel like the level is in the right place. But feedback from the community and if there were any unintended consequences that we couldn’t see in the data that we already have.
When you roll this out, does this only apply to UMG artists?
Yes and no. Right now, the agreement is with Universal, however we’re in discussions with all content providers. The majority of content providers are very happy with the artist-centric model, because everyone who produces high-quality content gets a boost, whether you’re a major record label, an independent record label or a small indie artist distributing yourself. As long as you create content that people value, you will benefit from the model. I expect a big chunk, if not more than half, of our content will be on the new model by the time we launch this on the first of October. And our intention is to roll this out to all providers in all countries in 2024.
What would be a mark of success for this program? Six months from now, what would tell you that this is working?
I think it’s if real artists really get the boost, if they see an uplift in royalties, that’s where we would say that this model is working and helping good artists create valuable content. That’s ultimately what we want to do. The pool of money is the pool of money. Obviously we’re working to raise the ARPU [average revenue per user] and grow the pie, but that’s a different discussion. But from the pie that we have, more of the money has to go to artists who create valuable content, to implore them to continue to create valuable content. If those boosts work as intended and the real artists creating valuable content see an uplift in royalties, this model will have succeeded.
Simma down: The King of the Dancehall has returned.
Seven years after his last studio album — 2016’s Unstoppable — Beenie Man is back with Simma, his latest star-studded, genre-bending opus. Featuring collaborations with a plethora of artists ranging from Shenseea and Shaggy to Giggs and Stonebwoy, Simma effortlessly traverses the intersections of dancehall, roots reggae, drill, hip-hop, and Afrobeats.
The album arrives amid something of a revival for the Grammy winner. This year, his classic 1997 hit single “Who Am I,” became the soundtrack for one of social media’s most popular music trends — in essence, people sing the first two words of the chorus (“sim simma”) and wait in anticipation for their chosen subject to finish the rest of the lyrics. La La Anthony recently used the challenge, aptly named #SimSimmaChallenge, to quiz famous friends like Kelly Rowland, Ciara and Kim Kardashian on their Beenie Man lyric knowledge.
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The trend is a natural extension of the timelessness of Beenie Man’s music. Dating back to 1983’s The Invincible Beany Man — which arrived when he was just 10 years old — Beenie Man has been reigning over the dancehall. Although the title of his latest album doesn’t have anything to do with “Who Am I” or the #SimSimmaChallenge, the record still houses a few career throughlines, including reunions with Mýa (“Docta”) and Sean Paul (“Supa Star”), who he previously worked with in the early ‘00s and ‘10s.
Simma, originally completed in 2021, suffered a lengthy delay after Beenie’s mother passed in 2020 following complications from a stroke earlier that year. “At that time when the album fit for release, I was in bare depression, mourning, all of these things,” he reflects. The album also serves as his first LP since his instantly iconic 2020 Verzuz battle with Bounty Killer. In this way, Simma is an unbridled celebration of life, longevity and resilience.
Beenie Man has earned six entries on the Billboard Hot 100, reaching as high as No. 26 with “Dude” (with Ms. Thing), the lead single from 2004’s Back to Basics. On the Billboard 200, the dancehall legend has racked up five entries to date, peaking at No. 18 with 2002’s Tropical Storm. On Reggae Albums, Beenie Man has notched six No. 1 titles from 13 overall top 10 projects.
In a conversation with Billboard, Beenie Man goes behind the scenes of the creation of Simma, recounts that improptu mid-flight performance, reflects on his storied career and gives advice to the rising generation of dancehall artists.
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Simma has been in the works for some years now. Did anything about the album change between its original release date and Sep. 1, 2023?
There’s a lot of things that change about the album, because we mek an album before and then my moms drop out by the time when the album fi release. So at that time when the album fit for release, I was in bare depression, mourning, all of these things. I was in it for two years until my brudda Blue decide to say, “Alright, we need to get into this thing now. Get out di depression, get out all di things you going through.”
So, my natural instinct is to go into the studio and beat up some riddim. So we got some from Fanatix from England – them send first – and then we got some from Busy Signal, and then we start from there suh. Then we went to England and get some more riddims and different type of beats. I never know seh di album turn out di weh it turn out, but when it finish, the job was great. No disrespect. We make over 60 song for di album.
There’s a host of genres on Simma — from roots reggae to drill — what was your vision in terms of exploring different styles on the record?
We’re just making music. We do Afrobeats, we do everything. Just make some music. Because people love good music and good music lasts forever. Regardless. Good music outlives you. Trust me.
You mentioned that there’s some Afrobeats on this album. Recently, there have been conversations around Afrobeats “replacing” dancehall on the global stage, and here you are merging the two styles on Simma. What do you think about the two genres’ ability to coexist?
There’s no music that can replace dancehall. Dancehall will never go nowhere. Dancehall will always be here. Because if there was no dancehall, there would be no Afrobeats. That don’t make no sense. People haffi stop, because they don’t understand the lifespan of music. You have enough music that come and last 5, 6, 7 years, but dancehall have been here from before hip-hop! If hip-hop a 50-years-old, dancehall almost 100-years-old! [Laughs.]
We have been through Shabba Ranks, we have been through Ninjaman, we have been through the greatest – Super Cat, all of them. So, dancehall is not going nowhere. Not at all.
There are many collaborations on Simma. Was there any thought of making this a straight collaborative album? Why did you decide to keep the solo tracks on there?
Every album I’ve been listening to is a million collaborations. You listen to Jay-Z last album, collaboration. You listen to Drake album, collaboration. So, why should not I? So you have a Busy Signal, Jamaican. You have a Shaggy, Jamaican. You have Sean Paul, Jamaican. These are superstars. So why don’t you use your own Jamaican superstars? In Africa, you have a pack of superstars. You have Stonebwoy, superstar. You have Giggs from England. We have all the superstars we can use. It’s my time. So, why not? [The King] has all his subjects.
We mek this album this way because the first part of the album was all me. Then I said, “Nah, get some people.” I’m still gonna be there. It’s not like somebody guh sing a song pon mi album which I’m not on. I am going to be inside that music. People sometimes dem like listen to other style or other version or other pattern, so mix up di ting.
Talk to me about the song with Tina (Hoodcelebrityy), “Let Go.” There’s this really dope conversational, back-and-forth vibe going on there. How did that song come about?
She even surprised me, because she never DJ my lyrics — she just get into the studio just like how mi know she a guh do. But mi nuh wan leave nothing to chance. So when she jump pon di record now and start do her ting, I say, “Oh, wow, murda.” She kill it. And the song wicked.
You and Teddy Riley have been friends for years. What was it like finally working together in a musical capacity on this album?
Teddy is a musician, and I’m a musician. Regardless of how long mi know him, it’s a matter of him a have time, because him always busy. The man spend six months a make a riddim for me. Six months. Every time I make di riddim, I finish the song, him send back fi di song and play a next riddim around it, and play a next riddim around it, and put on some other ting and mix the song different and send back di song inna different format and then mi haffi tell him “Stop!” [Laughs.]
And him say, “Hear this last mix, please listen to this last mix.” So, di man play di last mix fi me and mi seh, “Jesus Christ! Di brudda has a great mind. Just please gimme di last mix, don’t mek mi a beg.” And he gimme di mix. Cause mi nuh wan him fi touch di song again! But every time him touch it, the song get better.
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You’ve spoken before about modern dancehall shifting away from the tradition of riddims, who do you think shoulders the responsibility of maintaining that tradition?
It’s on us [as the older generation]. We are the artists that have been here before. We responsible, because it’s all music. Alright, say you’re having a dancehall stage show anywhere in the world, and you bring one million dancehall artists. You have dancehall artists from Africa, you have dancehall artists from Mexico, you have dancehall artists from America, you have dancehall artists from everywhere in the world!
But an artist like Ninjaman — none of these artists a bad like Ninjaman. They could never, because Ninjaman walk pon di stage — him don’t have to have a hit song today, him just need to present. Him just walk pon di stage, di people dem get crazy. Shabba Ranks. Him don’t have to have a new song today, all him haffi do is be present. So, imagine me now. I come after them, present, and get a response. Imagine a Buju Banton or a Sean Paul. Imagine a Shaggy, you get where I’m coming from? We will always be here. We nah going nowhere.
Music is not until death do us part. We dead and music still alive. So, this is what we are here for: longevity, to last, to be that person that people can always depend on. And this is why the album is called Simma, because the King is still here.
When it comes to the younger, rising generation of dancehall artists, who do you think are the emerging leaders?
Wow. Alright. I listen to Skeng. I listen to Skillibeng — sometimes I listen to him and laugh because I find him really hilarious. Valiant. Popcaan and dem are still my young artists dem still. They’re who I really listen to. You see, artists with substance and artists that make sense and take my brain somewhere. I don’t really listen to much new dancehall. I don’t — like, seriously. I’ll put in a Lauryn Hill CD and listen to that.
When did you first see the #SimmaChallenge online?
Well, somebody showed me, yuh know, because mi nuh pon di phone. [Laughs.] And then mi see a next person do it, and mi see another person doing it, and mi see dem still doing it. Then the challenge getting bigger and bigger. So, that’s the reason why I talk about songs with substance. The song outlasts you.
Alright, suppose I never have the courage fi still doing music, I would never have a new album. But the songs that I did from before gimme di courage fi know I can still do what I’m doing. You have to make songs with substance. Songs [where] we can hear inspiration, songs that can inspire you. You inspire your own self!
And I think that was really reflected at the West Indian Day Parade in Brooklyn over Labor Day Weekend. I heard different songs of yours all the time while I was out there.
Exactly. Alright, Bob Marley sing reggae. Mi sing dancehall. Bob Marley the King of Reggae, I’m the King of Dancehall.
I want to know the story behind that plane performance! They weren’t lit enough for you!
It’s not a story behind it! Mi leave out mi seat, mi wan look fuh mi band members. So, I went down there and everybody was sleeping. So mi wake up alla di band members dem and everything. But by waking them up, mi a wake up everybody. By the time we reach through di place fi go through the door for first class, everybody a seh, “You have to give something!” So, mi a seh, “What??” Because myself, I was sleeping. So, I said, “Give me something.” So, I’m just standing around and start [singing the opening of “Who Am I”] and the plane start sing.
It never plan. It’s just something that happened.
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Were you able to attend to Caribbean Music Awards the other week (Aug. 31)?
No, mi never able to see it. But I can remember the first time I win one of those. 1995. It’s been going on for a long time. I went up against Capleton, [starts singing Capleton’s “Tour”]. It was live on TV in America in New York, a matter of fact.
For those awards shows, I really feel appreciative of them — because they’re giving us the opportunity so we can work harder to become the people that we are today. People appreciate your work, so all yuh haffi do is just give thanks and appreciate what they’re doing. So, I do respect the Caribbean Music Awards and all the years it’s been going. Sorry I don’t have a visa to be there!
In light of the Bob Marley biopic hitting theaters soon, what are your thoughts on who gets to tell the stories of our Caribbean icons and legends, and how those stories get told?
Bob Marley have over five sons that coulda play Bob Marley, cause alla dem look like him. But dem decide fi use somebody else. Really don’t make no sense. Well, it’s a Bob Marley movie. Mi wait till mi can get it inna my circle. But, I think dem shoulda use Skip Marley, who is the last Marley. Or use Stephen Marley or Ziggy Marley or Julian Marley. But Bob Marley a Bob Marley. If you make a movie about Bob Marley, everybody wan see it.
Since you have reached the highest heights that dancehall, and music in general, has to offer, do you have any advice for younger dancehall artists who are looking to follow in your footsteps?
Two: Work hard in the studio and work harder onstage. Because onstage, people remember you the person, and in the studio, people remember the songs. But if you don’t work harder onstage people will not remember you as an individual, but people will always remember your songs.
Michael Jackson mek an album every two years, but people still remember him for his performance. I nuh care how many hits Michael Jackson sing, it’s never greater than that Moonwalk. Never greater than that backslide. Yuh see Michael Jackson with spandex? Nobody remember dat. They remember di performance! [Laughs.]
Elvis Presley was the greatest entertainer before Michael Jackson. Dem still remember Elvis as in performance, not in song. When yuh go in Las Vegas, yuh find 10 Elvis Presley shows, because of his performance. That is my only advice to any artist.
During the week of the winter solstice last December, Allison Russell stood in a large circle of “goddesses,” chanting and singing together to conjure communal joy out of thin air. Drums, guitars and strings joined her and her circle of “chosen sisters” as they celebrated “being back in our bodies.”
If that sounds more like a new-age spiritual exercise than a recording session, Russell will be the first one to tell you that two things can be true at the same time. “It ended up being very witchy and woo-woo and wonderful,” she tells Billboard. “We just got to be so present and say ‘F–k oppressors telling us we’re not gorgeous and perfect as we are.’”
That sentiment was the leading ethos behind the creation of The Returner, Russell’s spellbinding sophomore LP (out Friday, Sept. 8 via Fantasy Records). The folk star wanted to create an album that didn’t look back on the pain of the past — she had already done that on her outstanding 2021 debut album Outside Child — but rather firmly planted itself in the present and called for a much-needed celebration. Or, as she more poetically puts it, The Returner is about “stealing joy from the teeth of turmoil.”
To accomplish that goal, Russell ventured outside of the world of Americana music that made her one of the fastest-rising folk stars of the last few years. Taking a “rhythm-first” approach to creating the new sound, the singer-songwriter and Dim Star — the production duo of Russell’s partner JT Nero and Drew Lindsay — employed elements of funk, rock, disco and pop to further bolster her folk roots and give The Returner a fresh new sound.
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Russell says that this approach came about in part because she spent the last few years getting to tour internationally for the first time. “We toured in a lot of places where English isn’t the first language,” she said. “We realized that there’s a transcendence that comes when you allow yourself to feel music with your whole body. A lot of the demos started with us hearing the polyrhythmic layers of groove within some of the things that JT [Nero] and I were writing. That informs melody, that informs even the syllables, the words that are chosen.”
After spending three months working with Dim Star to create demos that achieved something close to the sound they were looking for, Russell recounts being contacted by her label in late 2022 and told that, in order to release an album in 2023, they would need her master by the end of the year thanks to ongoing delays in vinyl production.
Where most artists would panic, Russell felt relief — booking six days at L.A.’s Henson Recording Studios (a space “presided over by my hero, Kermit the Frog,” Russell quips), the multi-hyphenate embraced the do-or-die nature of the sessions. “We recorded Outside Child in four days, so we were like, ‘Oh, we have six whole days in the studio? That’s great,’” she recalls. “It actually felt magical — Joni [Mitchell] recorded Blue there, Joni recorded Court and Spark there, Carole King recorded Tapestry there, Tina Turner and Cyndi Lauper blew everything off the top of ‘We Are the World’ there. There were all of these good ghosts in the walls.”
In order to bring the expansive new sound of The Returner to life, Russell brought together a 16-person band of women to the week-long studio session. Featuring artists like SistaStrings, Joy Clark, Elenna Canlas, Elizabeth Pupo-Walker and a dozen others, the group became the engine through which Russell and Dim Star engineered their creative vision.
“The magic of this circle is that everybody is such a high-level, multifaceted artist; everybody’s a lead singer, everybody’s a writer, everybody’s a composer, everybody’s a multi-instrumentalist,” she said. “So when we go in the studio, it’s with this level of trust — and because of that, the album ends up being a musical conversation in real time with these brilliant artists that I feel so privileged to be working with.”
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Throughout her conversation with Billboard, Russell refers to the femme-focused troupe as the “Rainbow Coalition,” a name she also interchangeably uses for the community of artists she surrounds herself with and her fans. While the name may evoke a sense of LGBTQ-centric idealism that Russell shares with those she accepts as her chosen family, the singer points to the term’s long history for context.
Before the name was adopted into a larger cultural context, the original Rainbow Coalition was formed in 1969 Chicago by Fred Hampton, the deputy chairman of the Black Panther Party. Hampton helped bring together the Young Patriots (made up of poor Southern whites), the Young Lords (made up of Puerto Rican migrants) and street gangs throughout the city to work together towards social change.
While the original coalition fell apart after Hampton’s assassination in December 1969, Russell says that the core organizing principle of the original Rainbow Coalition remains a cornerstone of her own worldview today. “Any of us, globally, who are interested in the business of harm reduction, and of pushing for equality versus inequality — that’s the Rainbow Coalition,” she says. “There’s so few places where we can gather people from all different kinds of beliefs, histories, ethnicities and heritages in joyful assembly — but we have that in playing and listening to live music together.”
It certainly helps Russell’s righteous cause that she finds herself in storied company — in the years since she began working as a solo artist, the Montreal-born artist has become a contemporary of superstars like Brandi Carlile, Annie Lennox, Chaka Khan, and even Joni Mitchell, who brought her onstage earlier this year for her Joni Jam concert at The Gorge.
“Community is vital [in the music industry], both in terms of sharing resources and also just artistically,” Russell offers. “Getting to be a part of that event, where we were all there in service of Joni and in reverence and celebration of our elder was the most inspiring, transcendent, beautiful thing to get to witness and to be a part of.”
After being welcomed with open arms by artists like Carlile and Mitchell into the industry, Russell is now laser-focused on doing her part to leave the world a better place than she found it. One way she intends to do that is by fighting back against the ongoing wave of anti-LGBTQ legislation sweeping through the U.S., targeting healthcare and privacy rights for the transgender community, as well as First Amendment rights for drag performers.
Even broaching the subject of anti-LGBTQ legislation immediately prompts Russell’s indignant fury. “It is domestic legislative terrorism,” she says, her friendly smile dropping into a grimace. “It’s so serious, and we sleepwalk through it at our peril, right? This is some Third Reich s–t, and we cannot allow it to continue; we must fight back. And that’s what I’m talking about when it comes to the Rainbow Coalition — it’s all of us who stand at any intersections of the margin, anyone who loves us, and anyone who stands with us.”
Russell, believing in the power of live music to bring people together, decided to channel her anger into action. Teaming up with Jason Isbell and number of LGBTQ non-profit organizations in Tennessee, Russell co-organized Love Rising, the star-studded benefit concert that took place just weeks after the state passed laws banning gender-affirming care for minors and banning drag shows in public spaces. Featuring performances from superstars like Maren Morris, Sheryl Crow, the Brothers Osborne, Hozier and plenty more, the event was a runaway success — especially considering they raised over $500,000 for LGBTQ charities in the area.
Looking at all the artists who came out to support Love Rising — especially many of the straight artists who chose to speak up for the LGBTQ community — gives Russell a sense of hope for the future. “It’s exactly what we need,” she says. “It’s people like Hayley [Williams] taking a red eye flight to come back from opening for Taylor Swift, because she said she’d rather die than not be there to support the trans and drag community in Tennessee. These incredible allies are so important.”
But the work is far from over — Russell says she plans to use her upcoming tour for The Returner as on opportunity to work with organizations like the Human Rights Campaign and Headcount to register concert-goers to vote in the 2024 election and learn more about the attacks against the LGBTQ community. “It’s all hands on deck,” she resolves.
She’s also not taking her eyes off the music industry at large — amid the rising tide of harmful rhetoric, Russell says that a number of fellow artists in the industry have remained “deafeningly silent” on the topic, specifically in the mainstream country space. Russell doesn’t name anyone in particular, in part because she doesn’t want to add to “the algorithm of problematic artists,” but also because, as she says, she’s not trying to rehabilitate the “empathy deficit” she sees in the genre.
“I’m not interested in fixing the toxic white supremacy and masculinity of the mainstream. I think it’s a waste of energy,” she says. “I’m much more interested in building the beloved community of people that are ready to show up and do this work together, that believe in equality. The others will come along eventually.”
In large part, that is the message of The Returner — it takes a village to make deep, meaningful change in the world around you, and Russell is ready to build that village from the ground up.
