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Japanese pop icon Kyary Pamyu Pamyu sat down with Billboard Japan for its Women in Music interview series featuring trailblazing female players in the country’s music industry. Billboard Japan launched its WIM initiative in 2022 in the same spirit as the established example of Billboard’s event that began in 2007, honoring artists, producers and executives who have made significant contributions to the music industry and empowered women through their work, the highest accolade being Woman of the Year.
Kyary Pamyu Pamyu is currently in the midst of her world tour that kicked off May 15. Since her debut, the “Fashion Monster” singer has established a one-of-a-kind world with her unconventional style and has grown into an artist with loyal fans in her home country and abroad. While the Harajuku icon recalls that the little girl who eventually made her debut as Kyary Pamyu Pamyu used to be “shy and withdrawn,” she transformed her insecurities into her strengths as she built her career. In this interview, the KRK LAB label founder shares how she has valued taking a step forward without worrying about how other people see her, and encourages others to do the same.

Could you tell us about the women you looked up to growing up?

I think the first person I looked up to was my kindergarten teacher. She must have been in her early twenties, and from my point of view as a little girl, she was a flawless woman who was cheerful and kind, could play the piano and good at making crafts. It wasn’t until I was a little older that I realized what a great person my mother was. Especially after I started living alone at the age of 18, I came to realize that my mother, who had been there for me all along, had been doing various things to make our family’s life easier.

What were you like as a child?

Originally, I was shy and withdrawn. I was also easily swayed and wasn’t very interested in fashion until I entered high school. Even then I’d tag along with my friends to SHIBUYA 109 (fashion complex), and if someone said, “This dress is cute so let’s get the same one,” I’d be influenced by that and end up buying one.

But after I began hanging out like that, I saw some clothes in a window display in a store in Harajuku one day on my way home and thought, “That’s so cute!” It was really like a bolt of lightning. That’s how I got into Harajuku fashion and became more and more flamboyant. I really enjoyed wearing the clothes I liked and going out on the town, and it felt like I’d found my place in the world.

I imagine it would take a lot of courage for a shy and withdrawn girl to dress in loud fashion. You didn’t feel any hesitation?

I didn’t feel comfortable presenting something in front of everyone at school and drawing attention to myself like that, but I actually felt happy when strangers on the street looked at what I was wearing. I even wore makeup like a clown, and even when people giggled at me, I felt like I could stand proud and say, “This is me!” I was myself in the fashion I liked, and that was when I began thinking that was how I wanted to live my life. That has continued after my debut as Kyary Pamyu Pamyu.

So Harajuku fashion helped expand your world in a major way. People tend to worry about how others see them, especially around high school age, or are caught up in stereotypes of femininity. Why do you think you were able to free yourself from such stereotypes?

Back in those days [in Japan], we had magazines that everyone read that presented role models that supposedly helped you become more popular [with the opposite sex] in a comprehensible way, so I think I also had a vague idea of how I should dress myself and do my hair to be popular. If that particular style had suited me, I might have gone along with it, but I didn’t think I looked good in it. I think felt insecure about certain aspects of myself and was trying to hide that or was make myself look strong by wearing eccentric clothes and flamboyant colors. Especially after I made my debut, I was complimented because I didn’t fit into that framework and that made me happy.

If you were to give advice to someone who wants to dress the way they want to, like you do, but feel hesitant about doing so, what would you say?

I’ve had people tell me, “I’m interested in your style, Kyary-chan, but I can’t do it myself, so I’m content to just look at you,” and the thing that goes through my mind is, “Please just try it once!” My favorite quote is by [the Japanese author] Mariko Hayashi, who wrote, “Regret about the things you’ve done grows smaller by the day, but regret about the things you didn’t do grows larger by the day.” [from Yashin no susume]. If there’s something you’d like to do, just do it once, it’s OK if it doesn’t work out.

[Hayashi’s] words actually helped me out last year. When I performed at Coachella, three of the four dancers who were supposed to perform with me on the second weekend suffered health problems. My team was concerned and suggested maybe I should cancel the show, but I decided to go ahead with it by myself. Until then, I didn’t think it was possible [to do alone] but when I gave it a try, I managed to pull though like Mario in superstar mode. And I thought, “Why didn’t I try it before?” I realized that I had been limiting my own possibilities. There may be a lot of things you can do when you actually try them, even if you don’t think you can, so I encourage everyone to give whatever a try.

You got married in March and began new stage in your personal life. I’d like to ask how this might affect your work as an artist, but first of all, congratulations on your marriage!

Thank you so much. I think this industry is a world where there’s a gap between the glamorous side and everything else. There are times I find myself eating fast food alone in a corner of a room after performing on a big stage. [Laughs] I think it’s important for people to support each other precisely because it’s such a world, so it’s reassuring to have someone I can support who will also do the same for me.

While I’m not sure what will happen yet, I’ve thought about having children. I often hear of [female] colleagues who fear the gap [in their career] brought about by childbirth, since women do need a period of rest. They’re afraid they won’t be able to return to their place in the industry after taking a break. Now that I’m married, I feel I need to face these issues properly by accepting that they happen. 

Having one’s career interrupted due to motherhood is a major issue for many women. Has being a woman affected your choices in any other ways?

Around the time when I was in high school, I think there were even fewer female politicians than there are now, and I don’t think there were many women in decision-making positions in schools as well, like principals or year-head teachers. Things have changed now compared to those times, and I feel that the world is becoming easier to live in. Having said that, I still sometimes find myself being the only female artist in the lineup at music festivals and other events where multiple artists perform, and have always wondered why.

Also, I faced a lot of frustrating moments when I first started out. In addition to being a young woman, people wanted to treat me as some kind of ditzy character, perhaps because of my eccentric stage name and fashion. My comments in interviews would be rewritten as being overly friendly or rude in tone, or the writer would add something like, “Kyary threw candy at us the moment she walked in.” [Laughs] Then there were times when I would greet clients on site and they wouldn’t even look me in the eye. Because of these experiences, I’ll always remember the people who were kind to me back then, and I want to make sure that I treat everyone equally in the workplace.

That’t unacceptable, to be treated without respect because of one’s gender or fashion. What do you think is necessary for women to thrive in the Japanese music and entertainment industry?

I think [Japanese] society is in the process of shifting into an era of new values from that of the old. For example, when a politician comes under fire for making a derogatory remark about women, they say things like it was meant to be a joke. I find it hard to believe that someone who said something derogatory as a joke would realize that “times are different now, so I should change the way I live.” It makes me think that people’s values don’t change that easily. If more people of the younger generation with new values are given decision-making powers, that would make it easier for women to work.

—This article by Rio Hirai (SOW SWEET PUBLISHING) first appeared on Billboard Japan

CHAI’s Mana and Yuuki chatted with Billboard Japan for its Women in Music interview series. Billboard Japan launched its WIM initiative in 2022 to celebrate women in the music industry through various endeavors, including this series. Billboard has been honoring artists, producers and executives who have made significant contributions to the music industry and empowered women through their work since 2007, the highest accolade being Woman of the Year.
With its “neo kawaii” (new cute) slogan and outstanding musicality, the four-woman band has been steadily expanding its reach outside of Japan. When asked about what motivates them, Mana (main vocals, keyboards) and Yuuki (bass, lyricist) shared their genuine, heartfelt thoughts on wanting to further spread the music and words that saved them from the difficulties of life.

Did you have any women you looked up to growing up or envision the kind of woman you wanted to be?

Mana: The only thing I liked when I was little was Pikachu. [Laughs] Other than those around me, the only people I knew were on TV, but I never had any ideals of the kind of person I wanted to be like. Around when I grew up a bit and began aspiring to become a musician, the first woman I looked up to was Lovefoxxx of CSS. I was listening to various kinds of music and watching performances by artists while thinking about how I could best express myself, and Lovefoxxx’s stance as a vocalist and the way she performed clicked with me. The impact of their band name, which means “tired of being sexy” and the way they expressed other female dissatisfactions through rock music was huge.

So you already felt some discomfort from those days.

Mana: I’ve always felt that way. The word “kawaii” (cute) has always been a bane to me. The girls in my class who were called kawaii usually had big eyes and a straight nose, the exact opposite of my own face. CHAI’s keyword “neo kawaii” is also an expression of resistance to only having two values to choose from, kawaii or “busu” (ugly). We came up with it because I always hated that there were no words to praise myself or the girl sitting next to me even though we also definitely have good qualities. Our message is that regardless of gender, “You definitely have good qualities from the moment you’re born.”

Yuuki: When I was little, I didn’t really know what I wanted to be like or if I had anyone I looked up to, but I did like Tsuji-chan (Nozomi Tsuji) and Kago-chan (Ai Kago) of Morning Musume. As an adult, I don’t have any particular individuals that I like, but I kind of take the good parts from various people. When I notice something good about the people around me, I go, “That’s nice!” and I copy it and make it my own. [Laughs] And I find good things about people one after another at a fairly fast pace.

Your perspective of finding the good in everyone really links to the band’s concept of “neo kawaii.” Nowadays, diversity is considered important and values are gradually changing in Japan, but as Mana just said, even a short while ago the definition of “kawaii” was very limited and people were bound by that stereotypical view. How were the members of CHAI able to connect through those “neo kawaii” values back in your early days as students?

Mana: We started CHAI after graduating from high school, and all the members except Yuuki met in band at school. We already knew that we wanted music to be our livelihood at that point, but it wasn’t until we met Yuuki that the idea of “neo kawaii” became clearer to us.

The four of us hung out a lot on a regular basis, so naturally we talked about our respective problems, and for example I’d say something like, “I have a complex about my single-fold eyelids.” When you have conversations like that, you realize that people each carry different physical and emotional issues. As we encouraged and praised each other, we all started thinking, “We should spread this more!“ The four of us praised each other and that gave us the confidence to choose to do music, so we wanted to praise everyone else as well.

I can understand how you could discuss your inferiority complexes with people who share the same values, like band members, and praise each other like that, but when you open up about those complexes to the world, that means people with different values will know about them. It must have taken courage to take that step.

Mana: I actually thought that sharing our hang-ups was our only way to go and that we were able to find our raison d’etre, so having that gave us the confidence to go ahead with it.

Yuuki: Yeah, we’d been discussing how artists who have core values are cool, so we were happy to find ours. We weren’t worried. We can write lots of songs because we have this core, and it’s so much easier than having nothing.

But recently someone said to me, “Your songs and performances are good. Why put strong messages in them?” That person seemed to think they were complimenting us on our musicality. [Laughs] It was interesting to hear an opinion like that, but CHAI is CHAI because we value our messages as well.

Mana: That’s the part that hasn’t changed at all from the beginning. Ever since we were little, we were anxious and dissatisfied because we weren’t sure how we were supposed to live, but when we coined the term “neo kawaii,” it gave us release. We wanted to share that with people and have been doing this for almost a decade. Now that we also do shows outside of Japan, we’ve learned that the message we wanted to convey through “neo kawaii” is now a common value throughout the world. But Japan may still be a little behind the curve. That’s why I want the concept to spread more widely here.

So you feel that your message has been properly reaching your fans in Japan and elsewhere.

Mana: Everyone interprets it in a different way, but I think they find hope in CHAI’s approach because everyone has something they’re hung up on in life. This is what I see on everyone’s faces during our shows. I was born a woman, I stand on stage as a woman, and I write songs about my life as a woman, but I get reactions from all kinds of people, regardless of gender, generation, or race. I feel that if I do it right, people will understand.

I have an affinity to CHAI as a woman of the same generation, and it’s cool to hear that you get reactions from a wide range of people beyond that. What do you consider important when writing lyrics, Yuuki?

Yuuki: The message we want to get across is clear, but if we communicate it too straightforwardly, it might sound superficial or come across as explanatory. For example, if I just said, “Individuality is important,” it might not click with people because they’ve heard it so many times before. We also don’t want to be like what we say is the only right thing. So we try to be conscious of conveying our messages in a fun, interesting, and lighthearted way to the rhythm. I don’t want to limit our fans by gender or generation, so I use “we” or “I” as the subject, and my intention is to encourage people to think, “I’m free to decide, ‘This is how I am’ for myself.”

Mana: After we put those lyrics to music and I sing them live, I digest them and they give me self-confidence as well. I think the interesting thing about lyrics is that the nuances change from day to day, and the thoughts that I put into the words, like, “I’ll convey them in this way today,” change as well.

You stand on stage as women, but write lyrics and perform intending to transcend gender, which is probably why you connect with so many people. How do you think being a woman affects what you do?

Mana: I think it only has positive influence. We didn’t like being labeled a “girls band,” so we decided to call ourselves an “onna (woman) band,” but being labeled like that gave us the opportunity to reject it, so it turned out OK.

Yuuki: There were lots of times when we were the only female performers at festivals, and I’ve always thought the balance was skewed. And while the situation is similar when you look at society, that also means there’s a possibility for change. Like how we changed the way we looked at our inferiority complexes, we probably interpreted it as opportunities.

Mana: I do feel a tendency (in Japanese society) of people wanting to suppress badass women and wanting them to stay tame. So I want to keep saying, “Everyone can say what they want to say more!”

Yuuki: I express myself not only through music but also through drawing, and there are many people around me who express their identities and thoughts like that. I’m hoping that expressing your will in that way becomes something mundane.

I think if people could find methods to express their will, like how you were encouraged by your musical and artistic endeavors, they’d be able to move forward. What would you say to someone who’s feeling lost because they haven’t found a way of expressing themselves?

Mana: You don’t have to force yourself to find it. I’d like you to interpret the fact that you haven’t found it yet as a positive thing. Because if you haven’t found it, it means you can do anything.

Yuuki: I think that being interested in things is a talent in itself. People often say, “I won’t do so-and-so because I don’t have the talent,” but if you’re interested in that so-and-so, you’re already talented at it. If you take a small step toward something you’re interested in, it might change your world. Don’t make a big deal out of it when you begin, just act, even if it’s just a millimeter or so.

I’ve noticed through our conversation that the two of you seem to translate everything into positivity. Have you always thought of things like that?

Mana: No, there’s still a part of me that thinks negatively. But I think I’m able to make music that feels real because of that wavering within, so I want to hold on to that. I want to feel proud of the way I face my troubles in my journey as a musician.

Yuuki: I’m a pretty positive person now, but I wouldn’t say I’m positive 24 hours a day. But having moments when you feel negatively about something doesn’t mean you don’t have a positive mindset. When you feel negatively about something, you can grapple with it, digest it, and transform it into positivity. Maybe I’m able to think like that because I have CHAI. I just happened to find the thing that I live by, and I’m willing to work hard for it.

Mana: Yeah, if you come to see CHAI live, you’ll see that women like us exist, so I hope you’ll come to see us at least once. We give 200 percent of ourselves to our live shows.

—This interview by Rio Hirai (SOW SWEET PUBLISHING) first appeared on Billboard Japan