From the Desk Of
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While working as a partner and manager at Emagen Entertainment Group, Ebonie Ward watched #MeToo gain momentum and #TheShowMustBePaused bring the music industry to a halt in the name of racial justice. In the wake of these movements, “there have been all these indications of putting women of color into leadership positions,” she says, but little in the way of sustained action.
“I’ve seen a lot of Black women, especially in hip-hop and R&B, who are the backbones at many companies. I’ve also seen a lot of women who are actually running these companies, but they’re still not the face,” adds the 2023 Women in Music honoree. “It was time to do something different.
“During COVID-19, I realized that I was limiting myself by not being forward-moving or thinking out of the box,” Ward recalls. So after five years at Emagen, she has opened the doors to her own full-service management firm, 11th & Co (pronounced “co”) — the first management company to be led entirely by women and, specifically, Black women.
In addition to Ward, who’s chairwoman/CEO, 11th & Co’s seven-member executive team includes CFO Alexandria Kindle, chief marketing officer Jenna Magee-Tyson, chief legal advisor Zita Brack, executive vp of lifestyle promotions Imaine Molo, executive vp of tour marketing Krishna Lee and head of A&R operations and administration Asha “DJ Osh” Holland.
“The one thing I love about the women on my team is that they’ve done a multitude of different things: from working in politics, finance, entertainment law and marketing to fashion, DJing, touring and restaurant ownership,” says Ward. “It was important to have a diverse group of experienced people who might not necessarily work with each other traditionally but would be able to come together and bring out the best in each other.”
Based in Atlanta and with plans to open a Los Angeles office, the 11th & Co roster includes Ward’s longtime clients Future, Gunna and Flo Milli, as well as its newest client, NBA player James Harden. “In its own way, sports is very similar to music because a lot of athletes want to get into lifestyle,” she says. “They want marketing.” Ward says she’s also looking forward to working with the Italian fashion house Pucci. (Ward and her executive team are all wearing Pucci in the group photo.)
What was the inspiration for your firm’s name?
My birthday is Sept. 11. And my executive board, staff and client roster now total 11. I’ve always had this synergy around the number 11; it has always felt powerful to me. Plus, I wanted something timeless. Something that would make people ask more about it.
What is your vision for the firm?
I want to do something that is very unorthodox, not one-dimensional. In addition to our music clients, we’ve just added James Harden of the NBA’s Philadelphia 76ers. James has an agent with whom I work very closely, but I’m more like James’ lifestyle manager. He’s his own brand. I went to him and asked if he’d thought about life after basketball. I wanted to help him understand and realize that he needed to pay attention to how he’s perceived off the court. People don’t know his story. He’s very humble and gracious. He’s a board member and minority investor in Saks Fifth Avenue’s e-commerce business [known simply as Saks] and is doing things in the alcoholic beverage world with wine and tequila. And there are other things that we’re helping him build and navigate.
Future, meanwhile, is touring the rest of this spring with Don Toliver and other artists and has a new album coming in 2023 [teased earlier by the rapper as a collaboration with Metro Boomin]. Flo Milli will be performing at Coachella, with her second album due later this year.
From left: Krishna Lee, Imaine Molo, Jenna Magee-Tyson, Ebonie Ward, Asha “DJ OSH” Holland, Alexandria Kindle, and Zita Brack photographed on February 22, 2023 in Los Angeles.
Yuri Hasegawa
What are the challenges of being a Black, female C-suite executive in the music industry?
The first challenge is to be received and respected. Even working with my previous partner [Emagen founder/CEO Anthony Saleh], I’ve walked into rooms and not been addressed, let alone been respected, for knowing this business inside and out. You don’t want to say you didn’t get a deal because you’re a woman. And you don’t want to use your Black card. That’s something a lot of women in this business have to deal with. At the same time, you have to have a level of stamina to sustain yourself through the joys and pains, to be able to accept the word “no,” which can feel defeating. Many of us women don’t protect or advocate for each other. When someone invites you to something, go; get someone’s phone number and call them. Get real information and learn from it. Please tell me when I’m wrong or I didn’t do enough. And then we must be able to take that information gracefully. More women need to do that for each other, especially Black women, because we can be each other’s harshest critics.
Why are there still so few female managers and C-suite executives — especially those of color — in the industry?
More work needs to be done. Aside from holding other people accountable, we need to hold ourselves accountable. As soon as everything came back after the show was paused, a lot of those efforts stopped. Going back into our offices, we need to still have that same hunger and that same fight to hold the industry accountable for what they said they were championing.
In the wake of Gunna’s plea deal before the Young Stoner Life Records RICO trial, does he have new music projects in the pipeline?
Because of the ongoing trial, I really can’t speak to that. But the time will come. Having been incarcerated for seven months, he’s really just getting acclimated to being out of a cell. Sometimes people need to give people an opportunity just to be human. In the meantime, myself and all of my clients have signed [300 Elektra Entertainment chairman/CEO] Kevin Liles’ “Art on Trial: Protect Black Art” petition. People need to understand that this issue affects not just the people who are dealing with it personally, but all of us. It’s a very serious issue that we need everyone’s support to rally behind.
You moved into artist management after meeting Future while operating your own men’s boutique. And you were featured in Emilio Pucci’s recent collection celebration in Switzerland. Will 11th & Co be collaborating with Pucci on other projects?
I have built an amazing relationship with fashion house Emilio Pucci’s new designer, Camille Miceli. I was so honored to be a part of their collection celebration in Switzerland and look forward to us continuing our relationship. 11th & Co will be working with Emilio Pucci to integrate new life to the brand, and I cannot wait to share more once everything is finalized.
As North America’s largest independent promoter, Gregg Perloff, the co-founder/CEO of Another Planet Entertainment, isn’t the type to ask for permission from the majors before making his next move.
Perloff has learned since selling Bill Graham Presents in the 1990s to the company that would become Live Nation that stealth can be a strategic advantage in the live-music business. That’s especially true when competing against Live Nation and AEG, which each have hundreds of millions of dollars in capital.
So, after three years of secretly negotiating, leasing and remodeling a 45,000-square-foot venue in downtown Los Angeles — AEG and Live Nation turf — Perloff and The Bowery Presents co-founder Michael Swier are about to open The Bellwether. The two-story venue is located west of the 110 Freeway between Third and Fourth streets. The one-city-block-long space is anchored by a 1,600-capacity general-admission theater and features a street-level bar and restaurant, plus a 600-capacity private event space. The venue also comes with provenance: It was once owned by Prince, who named it after his 1992 song “Glam Slam.”
Prince moved out in 1995, and a parade of lesser-known club operators followed. Months before the 2020 shutdown of live music, Swier found it. Instead of buying the building from its current owner, Perloff and Swier — who owns L.A.’s Teragram Ballroom and Moroccan Lounge — quietly worked out a long-term lease and started preparing the building for a 2023 opening. The Bellwether will be booked by long-time Another Planet Talent buyer Nick Barrie.
Perloff pulled off a similar coup in 2007 when he engaged in under-the-radar negotiations with San Francisco officials to secure a permit for the first multiday, after-sundown private festival in Golden Gate Park. Knowing the city badly needed revenue due to budget shortfalls, Perloff and his team kept the talks under wraps and got the agreement signed despite the last-minute protests of his competitors in San Francisco’s Live Nation office. That event, Outside Lands, is today one of the highest-grossing independently owned festivals in the United States.
Basketballs signed by late UCLA Bruins coach John Wooden and Golden State Warriors point guard Steph Curry. Former San Francisco Giants catcher Buster Posey autographed the miniature bat.
Karen Santos
Perloff, who has six decades of experience in the live-music business, sat down with Billboard to discuss his new L.A. venue, his thoughts on the Taylor Swift ticketing debacle, the U.S. Senate’s subsequent grilling of Ticketmaster, and the effectiveness of the U.S. Department of Justice’s 2010 consent decree and the protections put in place to protect Ticketmaster customers.
Let’s hear the big news about your new music venue.
We will be opening our first venue in L.A. in decades: a 1,600-seat music venue just west of downtown. We’re partnering with Michael Swier, who owns some of New York’s most iconic rooms like Bowery Ballroom and the Mercury Lounge. The new venue will have an open floor plan that can host any type of contemporary music act or genre. It’s got perfect sight lines with a wraparound balcony and side lounge where people can relax. We’ve got a d&b [audiotechnik] sound system custom-built for this particular room. When we saw this new space, every one of us said, “Oh, my God. We have to do this.”
Perloff says he bought this sculpture by glass artist Dale Chihuly “at an Oakland children’s hospital music therapy event.”
Karen Santos
Did 2022 meet your expectations in terms of sales?
It was a really good year for us, and our sales in 2023 are so much better than they’ve ever been. I don’t think I’m alone in this. While everyone’s saying there aren’t enough acts out there, the other side of the coin is sales are spectacular. When the end of 2021 came, there seemed to be this built-up demand after the pandemic, and we had a burst of great sales including for our festivals Outside Lands and Life Is Beautiful, both of which sold out. We had a really great 2022 as well. [Billboard parent company PMC Media is a majority owner of Life Is Beautiful.]
Why is sales momentum continuing to build?
Maybe it’s that half the people going to shows right now were ready the day the doors opened back up, and the other half now have joined in. I literally have never seen a situation like this.
Do you worry about business cooling off in late summer?
Not for Outside Lands. It was held during the first week of August and had its best year in 2022. But to your point, I’ve always said that it would be better for everyone if we could figure out how to convince artists to play all year round and go from a six- or seven-month business where everyone’s compressed together to one where artists go out earlier in the year.
Another Planet was one of the few concert companies that did not lay off any of its staff during the pandemic. Why was that important to you?
We were the only concert company that kept 100% of our employees on payroll with no salary reduction during the entire pandemic. It was important that people could continue their lifestyle. I didn’t understand why these big companies didn’t do the same. There was plenty of work to be done from home: new venues, different ways to tell people about our shows and production and building maintenance. When the pandemic ended, we were ready to go.
You’ve been a Ticketmaster client for a long time and stayed with the company after its merger with Live Nation. Over a decade later, do you think the Department of Justice got it right?
I’ll say this: There is supposed to be a firewall in place so that Ticketmaster won’t share your data with the concert promotion side of Live Nation. If anyone believes that Live Nation can’t get numbers from Ticketmaster, they’re very naive. Somehow people seem to know what everybody else’s ticket sales are.
A tambourine depicting legendary concert promoter Bill Graham that Perloff got at an event thrown by his late boss’ memorial foundation.
Karen Santos
Do you agree with the argument that Ticketmaster leverages Live Nation content to land ticketing contracts?
No, and I can’t believe that the Senate keeps fixating on something that is irrelevant. They don’t do it. That isn’t an issue. To listen to the Senate talking about arenas when Live Nation doesn’t even own an arena in this country is just crazy. Secondly, when the Department of Justice said it was going to subsidize AEG’s AXS ticketing to be a competitor to Ticketmaster [in 2010], we all saw how that went — not very good. I’m not sure that most people would pick AXS over Ticketmaster.
Because of Ticketmaster’s dominance?
No. What I’m saying is that it’s hard for me to take the government seriously when they say they want to stop monopolies when there are monopolies in every part of business, from telecom to transportation.
What are your reasons for sticking with Ticketmaster?
I thought Ticketmaster was doing a good job for us. I have nothing bad to say about my competitors. Everyone wants to pick on AEG and Live Nation, but most people have no idea how hard it is to produce a tour. I toured Star Wars: In Concert with LucasFilm around the world for five years and worked on tours with Bill Graham; it’s a completely different game than being a local promoter. AEG and Live Nation do an incredible job and should be applauded for the work they do with Taylor Swift and Bruce Springsteen. Every five years, you get an artist that’s so popular that you just can’t make everyone happy.
Do you think the Swift ticket sale was mishandled?
I think there were a number of problems with the Taylor Swift on-sale. This might be the first controversial thing I’ll say in this interview: Bands really want to put the whole tour on sale at once because they can advertise the whole tour at once and make a bigger splash.
Fender guitar cases containing instruments won at a benefit auction for The Bridge School, which was co-founded by Pegi Young, the first wife of Neil Young.
Karen Santos
Right, and for Swift, something like 2.2 million tickets went on sale simultaneously.
If someone’s touring for six months, it might make some sense to maybe break the tour into two segments and go on sale with the second part of the tour closer to the dates. But there’s no system in the world — and this is where I have to defend Ticketmaster — that could have handled the onslaught.
Do you think the Senate understands that?
My question for them is, “Why are you picking on Ticketmaster and Live Nation when you should be outlawing brokers?” They are the ones who screw up everything. Does every promoter take a few tickets? Does every venue have a few tickets? Sure. But it’s the scalpers that make it so no one can get a decent seat except the rich. The Senate didn’t do the research they should have done before they started pontificating and acting like they knew what they were talking about.
What’s the best way to stop scalping?
Many years ago, my business partner, Sherry Wasserman, came up with a brilliant system for Prince at the Wilshire in Los Angeles back when I ran the theater. We wanted to completely stop brokering for the show, and we made people line up the day before the show and present an ID when buying tickets. It was foolproof, we thought. And then the next day as people are walking in, here comes Muhammad Ali with tickets and a matching ID. Muhammad Ali certainly wasn’t in line the day before when we sold the tickets, but here he was with a ticket and ID. We didn’t know how, but he managed to beat the system. We just laughed and thought, “We did the best we could do.”
Jangwon Lee‘s life in music began in typical Korean fashion. “All the kids in my generation grew up with the piano at some point in their lives,” Lee says over the phone from Seoul. His love of the instrument continued beyond childhood with a piano duo, The Serendipity, but has taken a back seat to serial entrepreneurism.
While studying business administration at Seoul National University, Lee co-founded Campusdal, a food delivery app. Then, after two years in the Korean air force, he founded Mapiacompany, a technology firm that operates three online platforms for independent musicians to sell digital sheet music. The experience set the stage for Lee’s remaking of Korea’s music intellectual property (IP) business.
“It gave me the legal knowledge that was necessary to start my new business — the publishing, the copyright laws, how to monetize, how to distribute the royalties,” Lee says.
Now, Lee is the CEO of two-year-old Beyond Music, a music investment firm with 26,000 copyrights and about $250 million under management. In 2021, Beyond Music created Asia’s first song fund with support from institutional investors including KB Securities, Base Investment and Maven Growth Partners. Last year, it added funding from the electronics and entertainment company Dreamus.
In 2022, Lee doubled down on Korean content by launching an exchange-traded fund focused on Korean entertainment companies, the KPOP and Korean Entertainment ETF. Prominent Korean music companies HYBE, SM Entertainment and JYP Entertainment are in its portfolio, but it also includes Studio Dragon, a TV studio; Naver, owner of messaging app Line; and Kakao, owner of Korea’s largest music subscription service, Melon.
In the West, investment money has been flowing heavily into music IP for more than a decade, especially in the last five years. It seems like the practice took root in Korea much later. Why do you think that is?
In 2017-18, when Hipgnosis started, there were very few precedents for Korean capital markets. You’ve got to understand the market, the nomenclature, the industry network. You have to know the nooks and crannies of the IP business. And also, you need to have a financial grasp, the understanding of capital markets, how to raise capital, how to structure the company, how to build, how to do tax-efficient modeling, IRR [internal rate of return] predictions, quantitative valuations. This is very much a quantitative business, whereas the understanding of the IP business is a relatively qualitative business. So, these are polar opposites in terms of business characteristics. In the past, I don’t think in Korea there was a team that really embodied these polar opposites.
We have people from PwC, KPMG, KKR and Morgan Stanley on our team. We have producers and someone who used to be a top-level executive of the largest music value chain company in Korea. I think that was why we were first to scale, to be able to build and raise funds from the very conservative institutional capital of Korean or Asian private equity and limited partner network.
Streaming is driving growth in global recorded music and publishing revenue, and that growth has helped attract new investors and more investment in general. Is streaming also the main factor behind increased investor interest in music IP in Korea?
Yes. I think it’s twofold. No. 1: streaming in the domestic market. Korea ranked [at] No. 6 in terms of market size for music globally. Japan is No. 2. Add Japan and Korea together, it almost equals the European Union. So it is a big market on its own, and local growth here is definitely driving part of it. Another part is Korean content’s market share in the global music industry. In the past, Korean music rights’ primary source of revenue was domestic usage, and therefore domestic growth was the only tailwind. But now we see the market share of Korean music growing exponentially year over year in other parts of Asia and moreover in Latin America, the Middle East and North Africa regions, Europe, North America. Not just BTS and BLACKPINK, but more midtier artists. You become fans of Korean music through those more hallmark artists, but you end up trickling down to other more long-tail or indie artists as well. And all the markets have been benefiting.
You have a large catalog. Do some of your less popular songs have commercial potential outside of Korea?
We have a mix of more global, more well-received catalogs and older, Korean-focused catalogs. The former obviously is a direct beneficiary of such a market growth trend. The latter, to a lesser degree, is also benefiting. It’s surprising that songs on Spotify that are not as famous as BTS at all are getting relative hype from other parts of Asia, and we see it for some of our older catalog as well. I don’t know how they were discovered, but on YouTube playlists, on YouTube comments, we see Spanish, we see French, we see it with Southeast Asian languages for songs we own that are 10 to 15 years old.
Multiples and valuations have risen a lot over the last few years. What’s the Korean market like right now? Is it as heated as other markets?
It is more heated than before, but to my knowledge, the blended multiple acquisition average used to be between 20 and 30 times. Now with the higher interest rate, multiples are still within the high teens, like 17, 18, 19, or at least like 15. But in Korea, or at least for us, our acquisition multiple, the blended average, is still below 10. So, we have been able to acquire very good assets. We think they are not lesser than their U.S. or U.K. counterparts at all. So, from a quantitative viewpoint, these don’t necessarily have to be valued at such a discrepancy. But I think it’s a newer market here, and therefore there’s less competition.
Is it safe to assume that you’ll encounter more competition in the coming years?
I’m hoping not. But from a reasonable standpoint, I do see that may be unavoidable. But it’s a good thing for us, because it will also help with our existing catalog valuing up.
What do you do to create additional value for the IP you purchase? Do you actively manage, market and promote the catalog — what Hipgnosis calls “song management”?
Whatever Hipgnosis is doing, we’re doing it essentially, whether it be synch, remixes, copyright, better revenue collection techniques. We put our methodologies into two main categories: active management and passive management. We define passive as collecting what was already ours but was somehow being lost due to Content ID not being perfectly managed by YouTube itself. So we employ additional music-pattern recognition — tech companies around the world — to do better collection for our existing catalog, which I know Hipgnosis is also doing. We try to find and mix a better lineup of distribution companies — intermediary publishers, etc. — to maximize our revenue while minimizing the middleman fee. For active, we’re doing remakes. We’ve already done a dozen remakes of our songs. I think two are now in the top 100 charts for Korean music. These are songs that were published 16 years ago, so after acquisition, we made remakes of the songs with new, up-and-rising artists in Korea. By remaking the songs, we hold the new assets as well as our existing assets. We’ve also worked with media channels in Korea to do music-related shows.
You recently purchased your first major U.S. acquisition: the catalog of producer-songwriter Greg Wells. To do this, you set up a U.S. subsidiary. Do you plan on creating subsidiaries in other countries to pursue acquisitions elsewhere?
Yes, for sure. The U.S. was a symbolic move for us. Our targets, however, lie toward lower-multiple opportunities. So, basically, Asia. We might set up subsidiaries. We might get direct acquisition from our Korean entity. But positioning ourselves as a more Asia-focused, Asia-Pacific music aggregator is our next step.
What might surprise people about the Korean music market?
The market size. For starters, it’s larger than most European countries — larger than Canada, Mexico or most Latin American countries, or even countries with more population like Indonesia. I think it’s bigger than Italy. Korea is really an advanced country. I can say that with more certainty now than I would have been able to seven or eight years ago.
How much of South Korea’s music market depends on the ability of K-pop to keep growing as much as it has in recent years?
That is a topic of interest for Korean media and Korean industry specialists as well — whether this is a one-hit wonder, a short-lived irregularity or a trend. People have been internally questioning, or doubting, the longevity of the trend. This issue has been raised for five, six years. Every year, there’s someone who says, “OK, you know, this cannot sustain. Maybe this is the peak. The next year, it might be difficult.” But the last five or six years have seen more growth every year, surpassing everyone’s expectation. This does have a kind of faith component, and I do have faith. I’m biased. But I think my bias stands with multiple consecutive years of a proven record. There’s no other country, outside of the U.S., that spends and reinvests as much money for better-quality music production as Korea. I’m very, very optimistic that this is not a one-time thing, but is a trend that will stick around at least for the next 10 years.
When Ben Kline and Cris Lacy took over Warner Music Nashville (WMN) as co-presidents in June, they let the staff know that their disagreements would be hashed out in the open.
“I want the kids to see Mom and Dad fighting,” jokes Kline, but then adds, “These are two people that are in the middle of [problem] solving, and hopefully, everyone learns from it and sees how we get to a decision.”
The hope is that airing out conflicts in public “empowers the staff to disagree with us,” says Lacy. When the pair took the reins from WMN chairman/CEO John “Espo” Esposito, who will ascend to chairman emeritus in January after 13 years, the last thing they wanted was “people sitting in the room just going along with whatever we throw out there. We need everybody to come in with the big ideas and be disruptors.”
Disruption is already happening at the artist level as the executives begin to put their stamp on the label: One of the first signings was Giovannie & The Hired Guns, the Texas-based band led by Mexican-American frontman Giovannie Yanez, whose breakout single, “Ramon Ayala,” spent five weeks at No. 1 on Billboard’s Rock & Alternative Airplay chart. They are also seeing huge streaming numbers with nascent country rockers Bailey Zimmerman, who is co-signed with Elektra, and Zach Bryan, who is signed to Warner Records but co-works with WMN.
Kline and Lacy, who were unofficially touted as Esposito’s successors for many months, have been preparing for the changeover. “We both have coaches, and we’re working at this relationship because we know that it’s not as simple as, ‘Well, we love each other now, and it’s all great,’ ” Lacy says.
Kline’s parents gave him this Boston baseball, which he says is a reminder of his roots and love of the sport. “This is the one item that has sat on every desk I’ve occupied.”
Emily Dorio
“We had each done some executive coaching individually, but as this came about, we leaned in and the company was great, and they have offered solutions,” says Kline. “As new challenges and situations arise, it’s very reassuring to know that we have that type of resource. It’s an evolution, and what it is today probably isn’t what it looks like in six months.”
Kline, who was most recently executive vp/GM, started at WMN in 2014 as vp of revenue before becoming senior vp of global revenue and touring. Lacy joined in 2005 after stints at several publishing companies. She was most recently executive vp of A&R and has been responsible for bringing acts such as Kenny Chesney, Cole Swindell, Cody Johnson, Ashley McBryde and Gabby Barrett to the label. WMN, which ranked third on Billboard‘s 2022 year-end list of top country labels, also counts Blake Shelton, Dan + Shay and Ingrid Andress among its roster.
In their first joint interview since taking over WMN, the executives, who report to Warner Music Group CEO of recorded music Max Lousada, talked about their vision for the company, what they admire about each other, ongoing challenges at radio and what keeps them up at night. What do you admire the most about the other?
Ben Kline: Cris is incredibly inclusive as a manager, at soliciting everyone’s opinion and coming to a conclusion. Her ears and her heart go into our signings and 25-plus years of relationships that are drawn upon on a daily basis. I cannot tell you the level of safety I feel knowing that’s what my partner brings.
Cris Lacy: Ben is very decisive. I have so much respect for how laser focused he is in a meeting. That inspires a lot of confidence. The other is his business acumen. That makes me feel confident to go out to be creative — to jump off a cliff knowing that he’ll help me pull the parachute.
A print from the 1986 photo shoot for Dwight Yoakam’s Guitars, Cadillacs, Etc., Etc., which fueled country’s neo-traditional movement. “The picture captures the spirit of Dwight,” says Kline.
Emily Dorio
In February, Robert Kyncl will replace Stephen Cooper as Warner Music Group’s CEO. What interactions have you had with him so far? And since he is from YouTube, do you expect a greater emphasis on technology?
Kline: Yes. Cris and I have had a chance to meet Robert virtually. It’s hard not to get excited when you look at the companies that he has helped build.
Giovannie & The Hired Guns’ new album, Tejano Punk Boys, leans more rock than country. What drove the signing?
Lacy: What we heard felt like the spirit of the outlaw movement: rebellious, visceral, urgent and honest. Toby Keith is one of Gio’s influences. Toby has said things that pushed the boundaries. Gio is pushing the boundary a little further into rock musically. We also heard unreleased music that is more classic country in its structure. As a label, we have to look past what is probable in the current moment and ahead to what is possible. We believe in what Gio is doing right now, but we also believe in his vision to release different music down the road to the country, rock and Latin audiences.
Emily Dorio
That signing was in partnership with Warner Music Latina and Warner Records. Is the country market ripe for a Latin explosion?
Lacy: Yes! There’s a lot of opportunity, especially for our genre: the storytelling, the cadence of the music, the swagger. When we speak with our partners in that space, it feels like a natural fit for us. There will be more.
Your other initial signings were Madeline Edwards and singer-songwriter Chase Matthew. What does that reveal about your A&R philosophy, and how is it different than it was under Esposito?
Lacy: I was here for all of Espo, so I would say the A&R philosophy has always been consistent, which is: It’s storytellers. What Madeline and Chase and Gio say when you put them all together is there’s no boundary for us. We don’t sit in a room and say, “We need one of those.” The artist that we want is an artist that we don’t know exists yet.
Kline: The marketplace has also evolved, so how we judge success, how we’re able to amplify artists and get their music heard has changed. As important as [radio] is for critical mass, we are seeing incredible breakout success for artists in our genre through avenues that weren’t available.
How does that change A&R if you aren’t as reliant on radio?
Lacy: Honestly, it feels like freedom because it was so frustrating to know that when an artist came to a country major record label, what they were saying was they wanted radio. So if, as an A&R person, you loved the music but you realize it can’t go to radio, then you cannot ethically say, “I’ll sign you.” You ended up passing on artists that you truly loved. Now there are all these other ways to develop stories and break artists. The handcuffs are off.
“I try to start every day in gratitude,” says Lacy. “The Book of Awakening by Mark Nepo puts everything in perspective. The cross came from a meditation journey, and the candle is from this amazing artist counseling nonprofit, Friends of Porter’s Call, where I serve on the board.”
Emily Dorio
Are you rethinking the costs of radio? It can take a year to get a song up the chart and six months before you know if you’ve got a hit.
Kline: I don’t think we’d be doing our jobs if we weren’t rethinking how we spend every dollar. For a really long time, your marketing efforts began the day you went to radio with your first single on a new artist. That was when the clock started. If you’re doing that in 2023, I don’t know if that’s a recipe for success. There has never been more ways to do it.
It used to be you were only competing against your fellow Nashville labels for acts. Now you’re competing with the coastal labels as well. How do you deal with that?
Lacy: The last artist that we looked at had, according to Billboard, 18 labels interested. The New York- and Los Angeles-based labels are seeing something very exciting in this genre, so that’s good for the business. As much as we joke about, “Gosh, I wish they’d just leave us alone to do our thing,” it means that our music is traveling in a way that it hasn’t before. We have really good lines of communication with our sister labels, and we talk openly about, what is the native genre for this act? Having very good relationships is important to Max Lousada and to the philosophy of the company.
Is the increased competition driving up signing costs?
Lacy: Signing costs are going up because you have data that is predictive. If you map out the next five years of an act who is streaming X, there’s no sense in offering them less than they’re going to be able to make if they never signed a deal. What we didn’t have before was a way to measure where something would be in five years.
Kline: There has never been more data available around unsigned artists, and everyone has access to generally the same data. The rosters in this town were [previously] built out of people going to clubs in cities where the only A&R person was from a label in Nashville. It’s a different ballgame now, and it puts added pressure on — and we’re up to the task — to prove why we add value for the artists that we’re talking to.
What keeps you up at night?
Kline: The weight of the responsibility for 80 people that work at our company and the impact that the decisions Cris and I make have on their lives.
Lacy: And also the inability to break an artist that chose to sign with you — if we still can’t make them a superstar after they’ve made all these sacrifices and worked their ass off. When someone signs to a record label, they’re really giving you the thing they value the most. And it keeps me up when I can’t help them fulfill that in the way that they always wanted.
“This is a photo of my mom, Andrea Cris Lacy — who was ahead of her time in a male-dominated industry — directing and producing a PBS documentary about a death row inmate,” Lacy says. “She also made the dress she’s wearing. She did it all. The belt buckle is a gift from Cody Johnson.”
Emily Dorio
Last year, a 17-YEAR-old artist from Houston named d4vd released “Romantic Homicide,” a track he had made using BandLab, the Singapore-based social music creation platform. “He recorded a song in his sister’s closet on his mobile phone with Apple earbuds, using a stock preset,” says CEO Meng Ru Kuok — stock presets being one of many things aspiring musicians can find on BandLab, which wants to make it possible for anyone with an idea, no matter their skill set, to create music.
“Romantic Homicide” became an example of that ideal: The brooding, guitar-hooked track caught fire on TikTok, and d4vd (pronounced “David”) signed to Interscope, with the song peaking at No. 45 on the Billboard Hot 100
“I was cheering him on,” Meng says of d4vd. “We’re so excited and rewarded when people move on to other places, whether they stay independent or get signed by major labels.”
BandLab, which was founded in 2015, doesn’t receive royalties from music made on its platform. Instead, the company makes money on artist services (which include distribution, livestreaming and BandLab Boost) that allow acts to turn their profiles or postings into ads on the platform to better reach the 50 million registered users BandLab has.
Meng, 34, has aggressively expanded BandLab’s assets, which are grouped under the holding company of Caldecott Music Group. Along with instrument manufacturing and sales (including Michigan-based Heritage Guitars and Asia’s largest musical instrument retailer, Swee Lee), Caldecott has editorial properties like Guitar.com, Uncut and NME. (BandLab acquired 49% of Rolling Stone in 2016 before selling it in 2019 to Penske Media, Billboard’s parent company.) In September, Billboard and BandLab launched the Bringing BandLab to Billboard portal to expose emerging artists to a global audience.
“On a day-to-day basis, it is not just geographically split, but also mentally in terms of all those areas,” Meng says.
In November 2021, BandLab announced the acquisition of independent artist platform ReverbNation from its parent company, eMinor. And in April, it announced it had raised $65 million in series B funding, bringing the valuation of the platform upwards of $300 million. BandLab envisions a different sort of future — shorter songs made by anyone, using presets or even artificial intelligence (AI) — with the idea that the more music that exists, the more need there is for its range of offerings, from equipment cases to advertising. Business, says Meng, is “gangbusters, in terms of focusing on product and improving the experiences that we bring out.”
Do you feel that d4vd’s success validated your business model?
Yeah, it’s extremely rewarding. We’ve seen stories like that happening thick and fast. Earlier this year, we had an amazing viral success with an incredibly talented young rapper. He was 13 when he started making music on BandLab. He’s 14 now. His name is Cl4pers. He has 1.2 billion views on his hashtag on TikTok alone. It’s not just the viral success but the incredible talent — like d4vd, like Cl4pers — that, prior to BandLab, wasn’t making music with the capabilities that their creativity would have afforded them. D4vd is now signed to Interscope Records and [its artist development/management joint venture] Darkroom and has changed his personal career and the life of his family. Millions of people around the world have listened to his song and have really connected with it. It’s truly special, and it just reminds us of what we’re doing every day, beyond just creating a great business that we’re excited about.
What are the numbers behind that growth at BandLab?
Our last public figure that we shared, we have over 50 million registered users around the world. More than 16, 17 million songs are being made a month on BandLab. I still feel like we’re a small platform getting started. We have 80 full-time staff, 140 if you include all team members around the world. That has grown relatively quickly, and we have a lot of hiring plans in place to expand even further in the next six to 12 months.
Do the creators get royalties?
Yeah, that goes to the artists. We don’t take a position on artists’ rights. There’s a big movement, obviously, toward independent creators being fully in control of what they own. That’s really important to us. We’re focused on empowering the artists. The music is their content. So they are generating their own royalties if they’re distributed by BandLab or ReverbNation or via TuneCore, CD Baby, DistroKid — that’s one way they can be generating money off their music. The artist gets 100%. That’s what we do.
You don’t take commission?
We don’t. Actually, we have a lot of creator economy features on BandLab. For example, someone can tip users on BandLab in their profiles. We allow users to subscribe to other users, similar to Patreon or OnlyFans. We have features where artists can sell their tracks and albums, similar to the iTunes Store or Bandcamp, for example, and the artist keeps 100%. We don’t take a commission from the artists’ earnings after processing fees; Stripe and PayPal are involved in that transaction. We as a platform don’t take a cut of the creator economy. We believe it’s very important the artists are able to monetize. Especially in the United States, you guys get taxed enough. They don’t need more taxes on top from a platform.
How do you make your cut?
We’re focused on empowering artists in creating, making that accessible and free, and truly democratizing music. What Apple did with GarageBand was obviously an incredible progression in democratizing music creation, but 80% of the world uses Android. To be able to afford an iPhone is already out of reach for many people around the world. We don’t believe that people’s creativity or their ability to make music or to express themselves should be limited by their spending power or their knowledge of how to write a song.
Where we make our money is actually in artist services. If you are spending to distribute your music to Spotify, Apple Music, if you are running a promotional campaign — things to help promote your music or develop your career as an artist — that’s where we charge. We have a subscription service that we’ve just announced. There’s our BandLab Boost membership. We also have ReverbNation services that come through membership and various a la carte services.
Your business also supplies royalty-free music packages?
We do provide royalty-free samples. One of our features is BandLab Sounds: We collaborate with artists, commission our own sample packs for people to use in their music-making. And those are provided royalty-free — loop samples, one shots, which are utilized by musicians all around the world to make music. We also have an AI feature called SongStarter, which helps people generate royalty-free song ideas to start off their songwriting process.
All the music on BandLab is original music and original content. We’re very strict and pro-rights owners because we’re trying to protect the creators and all rights holders. This is something that we take very seriously with regard to licensing. It’s about protecting rights holders both on platform and off platform.
Do you train your AI to mimic popular human artists?
No, we don’t.
In the United States, the presumption, based on the Copyright Office, is that only works by human authors can be copyrighted. Who will own the copyright to AI-created portions of songs?
Ownership of content that is developed further from our AI SongStarter tool is owned by the user.
Do you offer marketing services?
We provide a variety of services through BandLab but also through our ancillary services. We acquired ReverbNation last year, which allows you to run third-party advertising campaigns on sites like Billboard, NME and Rolling Stone. They can buy campaigns and centralize their music for promotion on Instagram, Facebook and to promote videos they release on YouTube, for example. We recently announced the beginning of the rollout of BandLab Boost, which allows users to promote, for a fee, their posts and their profile on the BandLab network.
Do you have relationships with the streaming services?
Absolutely. We’re not a [digital service provider]. We believe there are platforms out there that do their job incredibly well. We’re here to empower the music that has been created that ends up on these platforms. We obviously have commercial relationships, like our distribution relationships, but also where we can funnel exciting talent that blows up on their platform.
Whom do you see as a rival?
I’ve been asked that question a bunch. BandLab is creating a whole new category of platform. There are certain services out there that do similar things, but our whole perspective on the ecosystem is that music is collaborative. By nature, it’s not just about the tools — it’s about collaboration, it’s about different influences when people get together. Services need to collaborate as well. That’s where we work closely with other platforms that people outside may see as competitors. There are lots of ways a platform like BandLab can have relationships as a funnel to other services through affiliate partnerships. There are many businesses that have the full suite of tools that we have as BandLab, and it’s our core objective to work closely with all of them. If the music market grows and the creator market grows, everyone benefits.
How has the democratization of music creation that BandLab and other companies and applications have enabled changed music?
The barrier to making a hit is now fundamentally more accessible to anyone. You don’t have to have had a long education or engineering degree to do so. So much of this is being empowered by short-form video and changes in the music industry where a hit song is no longer three minutes long but 10 to 30 seconds — which is really scary and meaningful at the same time.
Overnight sensations are largely a myth in the music business, and Brookfield Asset Management’s surprise emergence in early October as one of the biggest players in the song-catalog investment and management market was no exception.
Angelo Rufino, the managing partner behind the company’s $2 billion investment in music publisher Primary Wave, says the deal “was a real creative endeavor that took many twists and turns over six months until we both said, ‘We’ve got it. This makes complete sense.’ ”
The 41-year-old East Fishkill, N.Y., native is referring to Primary Wave founder/CEO Larry Mestel, whose business model, he says, convinced Brookfield it was time to make its first foray into the music industry. “We found, after a very long search, the manager who really spoke to how we invest as a company. Larry doesn’t buy an asset, then sit back and say, ‘Well, streaming’s growing at 18% this year. I’m going to get my beta just participating alongside that industry growth.’ He’s got a massive team of branding experts, content experts to proactively drive growth.”
Rufino predicts that strategy will be crucial to future success. “As more money comes in and as things become more competitive,” he says, “we think the ability to grow and compound these assets with a value-added component will be the single differentiator between the winners and losers.”
Rufino and Mestel worked together to craft a three-pronged structure without outside help — unusual in today’s world where investment bankers are often relied-upon go-betweens. They set up a permanent capital vehicle, which they filled partly by buying out some of the investors in Primary Wave’s first and second funds. They rolled $700 million in assets from those funds into the new structure. Brookfield threw another $1 billion on top, and Creative Artists Agency (CAA) joined as a strategic partner and minority shareholder. The result: one of the biggest single funds aimed at catalog acquisitions in the music industry.
Angelo Ruffino’s desk plaque serves as a reminder “that contrarian thinking is required, as things tend to come full circle.”
Krista Schlueter
Rufino, who holds a seat on the company’s newly formed board, sees the music intellectual-property (IP) asset class eventually becoming a $100 billion market and Primary Wave doubling or even tripling in size — while generating returns exceeding 20% — through movies, gaming partnerships and international expansion.
“It just so happens that Brookfield is the largest private investor in Brazil — a country that has an enormous music culture,” Rufino says. “We’ve also made strong footholds in India as a company, and it’s a market we are interested in exploring with Primary Wave.”
That’s not all. Brookfield’s limited partners — clients on the side of Brookfield’s business that manages money for a fee — remain extremely interested in investing in artists’ rights, especially now that some of the frenzied buying of last year has calmed, Rufino says. “We believe music [IP] as an asset class is still in the very early innings.”
Brookfield’s investment in Primary Wave is its first in the music industry. What should people unfamiliar with your firm know about Brookfield and how it invests?
We are a 100-year-old asset manager that has its roots in a Canadian holding company. We always take a contrarian view to value investing. We want to own things that we view as the backbone of the global economy. We began as a company that owned and operated assets, as opposed to just invested in them from a financial perspective. We started in real estate [and] very quickly branched out into infrastructure, renewables, corporate private equity. We’ve ticked every box of the global ecosystem of asset classes while [building on] our heritage as owner-operator with the best of both worlds — permanent capital and third party-managed money.
Where does Primary Wave fit in Brookfield’s $750 billion portfolio of assets?
Our CEO, Bruce Flatt, wants us to own the backbone of the economy. With Primary Wave, we own the backbone of the music industry with a super-long tail and very stable cash flows. When you own Bob Marley, Whitney Houston, James Brown, these are brands. He’s the best I’ve ever seen at leveraging brand extensions to supercharge the growth of these assets. When we saw the catalogs, we said, “These are the types of assets we can own forever if we so choose.”
Who brought in CAA?
That was Larry’s relationship. He introduced us to [CAA president] Jim Burston, and it became very obvious very quickly that they would supercharge Larry’s core competency. There is an absolute grab for content at this point. Netflix, Hulu and 30 others need to keep us engaged. We are going to keep seeing these artists weave their way into our lives, and CAA has the relationships to help us do that across many entertainment venues while also providing intros to artists.
The Buddha statuette “was a gift from a friend and colleague to bring our team good luck and fortune,” says Rufino.
Krista Schlueter
The market for investing in song catalogs and other intellectual property has grown crowded over the last two years. What’s your outlook for this asset class?
I’d actually argue it’s not that crowded. Somewhere around $7 billion has been raised to go after this asset class, and we think the total addressable market is well in excess of $100 billion. We think there’s going to be a massive opportunity over the next three to four years to acquire these rights. The other thing is that the opportunity set will become much more nuanced. These are really emotional, sensitive transactions for artists, and Larry has emerged as somebody whom artists trust, and that’s important when you are selling something as incredibly important as your life’s work. We wanted to buttress that by saying, “What would be better than partnering with the best steward for my assets and a financial partner that understands this asset class and has an ability to hold the asset forever?”
Why do this deal now?
I was resigned to thinking we wouldn’t get something done in the space until we met Larry earlier this year. What we knew was that 2021 didn’t feel like a good time to do this type of transaction. 2021 was a year of madness in the markets — sky-high valuations across anything you could look at. Brookfield is patient and has the capital base and buy-in from our CEO and investors to wait until opportunities are ripe and fit our organization. So we continued studying the space, gaining conviction in the asset class and understanding that the macro environment would eventually present the opportunity to acquire these assets at a good value.
Do you expect to deploy additional capital beyond what was already committed?
If the business model plays out the way we expect, yes, this entity will just keep receiving capital from us.
As you look to scale Primary Wave, what other companies might make sense to buy?
There are many things we can look at. There are going to be things that touch future mediums of how music is disseminated. Maybe it’s channels of distribution that might make sense for us. Maybe it’s song-catalog managers — people who are doing what we’re doing but need assistance with the value-added component. It could be international opportunities where we are looking at companies that could help us fully brand some of these artists in areas outside of their home country.
What kind of return does Brookfield expect to earn?
We have a 20-year history of compounding at 20%-plus in our public top company. We think returns for this asset class can be at that level and for a very long duration.
Where do you see opportunities for growth?
There are so many ways to monetize music. Think about movies, video games. Music is going to be like the Marvel and DC comic catalogs. We started with Batman and Superman. Then Justice League and Wonder Woman and Black Panther. You think about Rocket Man, Bohemian Rhapsody, Elvis. Now Larry is bringing Whitney Houston to Hollywood. I look at our portfolio of musicians and say we’re going to have movies made on each of them. Prince, Whitney, Bob Marley.
The ability to scale streaming penetration globally is enormous, and the number of vectors that are going to occur with YouTube, TikTok, Peloton are not going to only drive music penetration and pricing, but growth in areas that we haven’t begun to realize.
Angelo Ruffino’s “Fugazi” bell is “a fun way to call out analysis, accounting or anything that doesn’t make sense as we review investment opportunities.”
Krista Schlueter
If there was one biopic you want Primary Wave to make, what would it be?
Prince. I’m a big Prince fan.
What other music do you like?
Classic rock. I love all things ’60s, ’70s and ’80s. I’m a massive Talking Heads fan. I’ve always been into music and sang a cappella at Skidmore College and for many years in New York, including in a group called The Invisible Men. We disbanded when we all started having kids. My two sons, who are 3 and 4, love Tom Petty. We don’t own that catalog. Larry’s going to have to buy it.