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“Are you guys doing something?” Taylor Swift asked the members of *NSYNC on Sept. 12 while onstage at the MTV Video Music Awards, where the reunited boy band had just arrived to shrieks and presented Swift the best pop trophy. “I need to know what it is!” *NSYNC was back, and even pop’s biggest superstar was amped.
Justin Timberlake, JC Chasez, Lance Bass, Chris Kirkpatrick and Joey Fatone demurred at the time, but soon after the VMAs, *NSYNC announced “Better Place,” its first new song together in over two decades. The shimmering, falsetto-heavy disco-pop track was created for Trolls Band Together, the third installment in the hit animated film series in which Timberlake voices a main character, Branch, and has contributed hits to each of the first two Trolls movies.
“My excitement started way back in the early part of the year,” says Gina Shay, the producer/music supervisor for the films. That was when Timberlake sent her a demo of “Better Place,” designed to follow his Billboard Hot 100-topping smash “Can’t Stop the Feeling!” from the original Trolls film in 2016 and his SZA collaboration, “The Other Side,” from 2020’s Trolls World Tour.
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Shortly after sending the demo, Timberlake texted Shay that he felt inspired to reunite *NSYNC to record “Better Place.” “It was like dynamite was going off inside my brain,” Shay says. After all, *NSYNC — whose four studio albums have sold 27.9 million copies, according to Luminate, and scored turn-of-the-century smashes like “Bye Bye Bye” and “It’s Gonna Be Me” — hadn’t released music together since 2002.
And while Trolls Band Together focuses on a boy band reunion, Shay says that the plot had been locked in long before any talk of an *NSYNC comeback. “The movie’s story has been solid for about four years,” she says, “so it was just that perfect confluence of a song to reunite *NSYNC and to carry the narrative.”
Although Shay says that coordinating all five members’ schedules with their individual teams “took a little time to sort through,” “Better Place” came together rather seamlessly once the quintet was fully on board. After *NSYNC announced its reunion at the VMAs and unveiled “Better Place” on Sept. 29, Shay hopes that the song will become ubiquitous prior to the Nov. 17 release of Trolls Band Together — but however high it climbs, she’s glad that the film franchise could play a role in the reformation of a pop behemoth like *NSYNC.
“I’m so glad we were able to do this for the fans,” she says. “It has been a mix of love, pandemonium and wish fulfillment.”
This story originally appeared in the Oct. 7, 2023, issue of Billboard.
The Hunger Games films are no stranger to haunting musical moments that produce real-life hits, with six singles from four movies hitting the Billboard Hot 100 — including top 20 hits for Taylor Swift and even Jennifer Lawrence. When the prequel The Hunger Games: The Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes hits theaters on Nov. 17, a batch of new songs will take center stage thanks to Rachel Zegler, who delivers a nuanced portrayal of a nomadic balladeer thrown into a dystopian fight to the death.
Almost two years after winning a Golden Globe for Steven Spielberg’s West Side Story remake, Zegler is preparing to show audiences she can deliver gritty country-folk just as deftly as Broadway classics. To ensure the music of the film convincingly conjured her character’s Appalachia-esque milieu, Lionsgate tapped Nashville mainstay Dave Cobb to put melodies to lyrics penned by franchise author Suzanne Collins. Cobb, a nine-time Grammy Award winner, is primarily known for working with country artists including Brandi Carlile and Chris Stapleton. But he has produced music for major films along the way such as A Star Is Born and Elvis — and his latest Hollywood project presented a new challenge.
What about this opportunity made you say yes?
One of the things that was so attractive about working on this film [is that] I don’t think I’ve ever talked to a more intelligent person in my life than Suzanne Collins. She’s an absolute genius. Suzanne telling me the impetus of the story had me captivated. I’m a history buff — I would teach history if I wasn’t in music — and everything in this film, everything she has written for Hunger Games, is derived from real history. She sent me the lyrics, and I had to make them feel like turn-of-the-century, timeless classics. That’s a very hard thing to do.
The songs have a lived-in rawness to them. How did you achieve that?
The big thing for me was to get the ability to be completely unorthodox. We had this crazy idea to come down to my hometown of Savannah, Ga., and rent an old mansion and record in that. So we went to this 200-plus-year-old house, and the sound is very Alan Lomax. Lomax, whom I’m very influenced by, used to go around and capture people on their front porch. It was the real, genuine, authentic article of whatever he was [recording], so we went for that. With all the creaks in the walls, you can hear the history in the recording — it wasn’t like a clinical studio. The old microphones we used looked like they’d been under a bed for 75 years.
Dave Cobb
Becky Fluke
And what about the band?
I brought in ringers who I thought were great musicians. Molly Tuttle played a big part — she played the guitar of [Zegler’s character] Lucy Gray. I found this ’30s Gibson that I brought down, and she played on that. I showed it to [director] Francis [Lawrence], and he used it in the film: It’s the one she’s actually playing in the film. It wasn’t just a regular acoustic guitar — it has character. That was a big part of making this come to life. There’s bleed between the bass going into the fiddle going into the banjo. It’s just absolute chaos in a way that makes things dangerous.
Did you work closely with Zegler, coaching her on how to approach the material?
I made the music before the film was made, and Rachel is such an incredible talent that she ended up singing everything live, which we were hoping she would do. She’s so naturally gifted — it was effortless for her. She can sing anything.
Do you have a favorite musical moment in the film?
There’s a song on [the soundtrack] I love called “Pure As the Driven Snow.” Rachel has this beautiful, almost ’30s American voice. The way she sings the last line of that song is so stunning.
This story originally appeared in the Oct. 7, 2023, issue of Billboard.
Quincy Jones said it best,” explains Nile Rodgers: “A producer of a record is like the director of a film.” From his first production credits on tracks by Luther Vandross, Sister Sledge and Diana Ross to his more recent work with Beyoncé, Daft Punk and Coldplay, Rodgers is one of the rare producers who bridges the gap between the classic understanding of a record producer and today’s digital music-maker.
In the 20th century, Rodgers and his contemporaries recorded songs to lumbering rolls of tape, bringing the visions of artists and songwriters to life with their ornamentation, arrangement and technical skill. While that is still true for some producers, the trade has changed dramatically. Around the turn of the millennium, increasingly powerful DIY recording tools and the piracy-inflicted bust of the music business drove recording from fancy studios and into musicians’ homes — shifts that democratized who could be viewed as a producer and blurred the lines between the processes of songwriting and recording. How producers are compensated has also evolved, with greater distinctions for payment by genre, widely varying upfront fees and greater possibilities to earn publishing income than ever.
Producer Fees
The most reliable form of income for producers: a sum owed for their work before the song comes out. Fees tend to start around $15,000 to do a track for a major-label-affiliated pop or R&B/hip-hop artist; a superstar-level producer might charge up to $75,000 (or higher), but $30,000 to $40,000 is considered a good range for one who is well-established and working with a major-label act.
When producers work across an entire album of songs, it’s common to reduce per-track rates. “It might be $30,000 for the first three songs, $20,000 for the second two and $10,000 for the last song,” says Lucas Keller, founder of producer management firm Milk & Honey.
These fees are paid half upfront and half upon the delivery of a record that the label deems “commercially satisfactory.” While that first half is a producer’s to keep, the second is an advance against master royalties earned from the song. In today’s streaming economy, however, many tracks don’t recoup their fees.
Independent artists and/or those with little-to-no recording budget sometimes get more creative in paying producers what they are owed. Instead of a fee, “a lot of producers are getting 50% of the master monies, either in perpetuity or until the artist makes the producer’s fee back,” says Audrey Benoualid, partner at Myman Greenspan. Producers can also receive a fee under the aforementioned $15,000 for their work.
Points
The percentage of master royalties producers receive for their work. Earning from two to five percentage points of a record is common today, starting at two points for a newcomer and four to five for a well-established, in-demand producer. This amount is subtracted from the act’s percentage share of the recording; labels aren’t expected to cede any of their share to compensate a producer.
In rare cases, a superstar talent may command six to eight points: Rodgers and his manager, Hipgnosis founder and CEO Merck Mercuriadis, confirm that, on average, Rodgers earns six points, but every song is a unique negotiation. As Keller explains, things can get more complicated when two producers are involved: “Let’s say two sizable producers want four points each. We likely won’t get to take eight all together, so what about we try to split six points down the middle?”
Publishing
Because modern musicians often write and record as they go, the line between songwriter and producer is blurrier than ever. Many creatives that are now primarily classified as producers are also part of the songwriting process — and these multihyphenates earn publishing in addition to fees and points.
“Back in the day, when people talked about what a songwriter did, it was the guy who wrote melody, lyrics and chords. Today, if you come up with the beat, like many producers do, you can also be credited as a songwriter,” Mercuriadis says.
This is especially true in hip-hop. Michael Sukin, a top music attorney who has worked in the business since the 1970s, credits the genre’s emergence as a big part of redefining what a producer does. Timmy Haehl, senior director of publishing at Big Machine’s Los Angeles office, says, “In hip-hop, publishing is sometimes split down the middle: 50% for the top line, 50% for the track.” (In pop and other genres, there isn’t a standard amount of publishing a producer-songwriter can expect; that share of the composition is negotiated on a case-by-case basis.)
Extra Earnings
Some producers can pocket extra income through neighboring rights — performance royalties earned on the master side of income in many countries outside the United States. This, however, “has to be for a qualified record or qualified person,” Benoualid says. “You can’t be a U.S. citizen, unless you record in London and the studio is credited on the album — then you qualify for neighboring rights there.”
Producers in the United States qualify to earn a similar (but more limited) royalty from their masters playing on digital radio stations like SiriusXM, Pandora and other noninteractive digital transmissions. This is paid by SoundExchange, but producers aren’t entitled to this income unless the artists they worked with tell SoundExchange to pay the producers part of their royalty directly.
Nowadays, veteran hit-makers like Dr. Luke and Max Martin may also sign protégés to production deals or joint ventures with publishers to earn additional income, allowing them to, as Keller puts it, “amass a huge catalog with real enterprise value.” The younger producers, in exchange for part of their monies, in turn get introductions to, Haehl says, “people in [the veteran hit-makers’] network [and] special opportunities with artists.”
This story originally appeared in the Oct. 7, 2023, issue of Billboard.
Whether you’re a math-and-science whiz or an intuitive creative, there’s a prestigious audio engineering program that can prepare you for a career as a producer — or for whatever studio path you might follow — while emphasizing a well-rounded education in the process.
Here’s a selection of some of the best academic programs, along with sage professional advice from those who lead them.
Belmont University Audio Engineering Technology
The program: Heavy on math and science, the curriculum teaches students to design systems, components and processes and prepare for careers as recording-studio and live-sound engineers and audio-software designers. “If it makes a noise or records a sound, somebody has to think about it, create it, program it, build it, use it, apply it,” program chair Michael Janas says.
The skills producers need most now: “Motivation. If they’re trying to force themselves as a square peg into a round hole, they’re going to struggle.”
Berklee College Of Music Music Production and Engineering
The program: Working with artists, writers and other engineers, students learn technical skills (microphone placement, signal flow) and personal skills (critical listening, communication). “Reading the room, leveraging the strengths of artists, how you speak to people, deliver bad news — these are incredibly sensitive, difficult things,” program chair Rob Jaczko says. (Alums include Charlie Puth and Abe Laboriel Jr., Paul McCartney’s longtime drummer.)
The skills producers need most now: “Understanding the business landscape. We all need to have a better understanding of how we monetize our work.”
Clive Davis Institute of Recorded Music, New York University
The program: With six available studios, students here learn everything they need to know about becoming a producer or engineer — except for heavy-duty technical instruction. “We want to get them up and running and confident,” says Nick Sansano, program chair. “We’re not necessarily teaching them all the mathematics and circuitry.”
The top issues facing producers now: “Lack of access to money. You need some support to get things off the ground.”
Drexel University Recording Arts and Music Production
The program: Students learn the basics of recording, production, arranging, composition, postproduction, mixing and mastering. In one sound-recording course, experienced artists (recently, members of John Legend’s band) work with students directly. After their sophomore year, students spend the summer working in live-sound engineering or another music-business sector. “They can go out and explore an area,” says Ryan Moys, who oversees the RAMP curriculum. “Sometimes you figure out what you don’t like.”
The skills producers need most now: “Knowing different software platforms: We teach Pro Tools, Ableton and Logic. And great communication skills. It all comes back to you’ve got to be a cool person to hang out with.”
Fredonia, State University of New York (SUNY)Sound Recording Technology
The program: Drawing from European “tonmeister” curricula of the 1940s, which combine technical and musical instruction, the 35-year-old SRT program offers training in studio hardware, live sound, recording, editing, signal processing and sound reinforcement. “[Bachelor’s of science students] have a fairly good handle on the science side of the recording business,” says Bernd Gottinger, the professor who oversees the degree.
The top issues facing producers now: “Responsibility and trust. Gaining that trust is probably the most difficult achievement you can look at as a producer. Usually, it gets established by long years of working in a different world, until the band says, ‘Listen, you’ve been doing these recordings for us for 20 years, why don’t you actually produce them for us?’”
Frost School Of Music, University Of Miami Music Engineering
The program: Developed in 1977, Frost centers on a recording studio with three full-size consoles. “Half our students end up at a company, like Dolby or Bose or Amazon Lab126 or Shure,” department chair Christopher Bennett says. “They work on the innards of devices that end up in the studios.”
The skills producers need most now: “The more you can learn under the hood, the better engineer or producer you’ll be. If they understand things like room acoustics and theory, it empowers them to make more creative choices.”
Jacobs School Of Music, Indiana University Bloomington Audio Engineering and Sound Production
The program: Among IU’s 1,600 music students, prospective engineers and producers get hands-on experience in pursuit of their 80-recording-hours-per-semester standard as part of this 41-year-old program. “That level of responsibility makes a big difference,” department chair Michael Stucker says.
The skills producers need most now: “Signal flow is a concept that’s really important to us. Physics and acoustics as well.”
Middle Tennessee State University Audio Production
The program: With five recording studios, plus a postproduction studio and separate labs for mixing, mastering and electronic music, students learn mixing and sound reinforcement and put on end-of-semester shows for live audiences. “We don’t really think of ourselves as training people for a job as a music producer,” says Bill Crabtree, director of the master of fine arts program in recording arts and technologies. “That’s not the kind of entry-level job you’re going to get right after college. It takes a while.” (Alums include Luke Laird, who has written No. 1 hits for Carrie Underwood and Eric Church, among others.)
The top issue facing producers now: “Artificial intelligence has the potential to disrupt a lot of things. However, it will be a tool. Having those skills — we think that’s important.”
Ontario Institute of Audio Recording Technology (OIART)
The program: OIART emphasizes highly technical skills for careers in music production and audio engineering and recording. “We’re not selling dreams of gold records. We’re very realistic with our employment goals and the types of careers students can expect,” says Lee While, OIART’s chief operating officer.
The skills producers need most now: “The student group has aspirations to work in a major studio and be a producer. But somebody who aspires to be a hip-hop producer suddenly discovers they have a real talent for sound design for video games.”
Peabody Institute, Johns HopkinsMusic Engineering and Technology
The program: Bachelor’s degree programs range from highly technical, five-year studies emphasizing electrical engineering, math, science and computer science to a two-year graduate program working with classical ensembles and rock bands. “Some find, ‘I’m interested in how loudspeakers are designed or getting into programming with signal processing,’ ” program chair Scott Metcalfe says. “Others embrace their composition side.”
The skills producers need most now: “Musicianship. Understanding the goal of the artist and what the market is.”
Purchase College, State University Of New York Studio Production
The program: With nine studios at their disposal, students get hands-on experience, from arranging their own pieces to engineering sound in the Dolby Atmos format, in genres from classical to hip-hop. “We want them to be able to do everything. We don’t want people to be button-pushers,” says Peter Denenberg, coordinator of the music and technology program. (Alums include Grammy Award-winning jazz singer Samara Joy.)
The top issue facing producers now: “Being forced to deliver projects in spatial audio is an incredibly difficult ask. It just adds a level of complexity and difficulty.”
Steinhardt School Of Culture, Education And Human Development, New York University Music Technology
The program: Director Paul Geluso says graduates of the program are “skilled professionals” who know hardware and software product design, audio engineering, and performance and composition: “The students do a little bit of everything their first two years and [then] they gravitate to one area.”
The skills producers need most now: “Our students take theory and history. We’re definitely music-first in our approach to our engineering side.”
Thornton School Of Music, University Of Southern California Music Technology
The program: Offering a bachelor’s degree in music production and minors in production and recording, Thornton emphasizes songwriting. “We build this program around our students being strong musicians with a technical inclination,” program chair Rick Schmunk says. “They can write the song, arrange it, produce it, record, edit, mix, master.”
The skills producers need most now: “Arranging and songwriting. We don’t have much trouble finding students with enough technical skills to be effective.”
A version of this story originally appeared in the Oct. 7, 2023, issue of Billboard.
Zach Bryan’s “Something in the Orange” spent six weeks atop Billboard’s Hot Country Songs chart. But the track wasn’t recorded anywhere near Nashville — it was crafted alongside producer Ryan Hadlock, over 2,000 miles away at Bear Creek, the rustic barn-turned-studio that Hadlock’s parents had built in 1977 just outside of Seattle, not far from the birthplace of grunge. The genre-fluid song didn’t just top the country chart — it peaked at No. 10 on the Billboard Hot 100 and topped the Hot Rock & Alternative Songs chart, too.
“Even the term ‘country music’ is almost becoming passé in some ways because in working with Zach, in a lot of ways, he doesn’t really consider himself a straight-up country musician,” says Hadlock, who also produced Bryan’s “From Austin.” “He’s a singer-songwriter who happens to be from Oklahoma, has an accent and sings about the world he’s in… I think he will be doing amazing things for a really long time.”
Within Nashville, too, a similar genre-mashing ethos has bubbled up on hits such as Morgan Wallen’s muted, acoustic-based chart juggernaut “Last Night,” which spent 16 nonconsecutive weeks atop the Hot 100 in 2023. “He has one of those magical voices that allows him to span multiple formats, really,” says producer Joey Moi, who has worked with Wallen since his debut album. “He can sing a traditional country song, or over a hip-hop, contemporary production or a contemporary country production, and it still sounds like a Morgan Wallen song.”
As more and more country tracks have risen to the upper reaches of the Hot 100 this past year, many of the standouts — not only “Something in the Orange” and “Last Night,” in addition to other tracks by Bryan and Wallen, but also Luke Combs’ rendition of Tracy Chapman’s “Fast Car” (which reached No. 2), Bailey Zimmerman’s “Rock and a Hard Place” (which hit the top 10) and Jelly Roll’s rock and country-blending “Need a Favor” (which broke into the top 20) — demonstrate an instinct for crafting sounds that appeal beyond the genre.
A mix of newcomers and veterans, they include Hadlock; Wallen’s “Last Night” producers, Moi and Charlie Handsome; Zimmerman producer Austin Shawn; Combs’ “Fast Car” co-producers, Jonathan Singleton and Chip Matthews; and Jelly Roll producer Austin Nivarel.
Notably, many of these studio creatives have résumés that extend beyond country. Before working with Big Loud artists like Wallen and Florida Georgia Line, Moi produced Canadian rock band Nickelback. Hadlock has worked with names ranging from Foo Fighters to Brandi Carlile, while Handsome’s credits include Post Malone, Kanye West, Juice WRLD and Lil Wayne.
For Wallen and Bryan, scaled-back production proved essential to the genre-traversing success of their respective hits. “We purposefully kept it simple,” Moi says of “Last Night.” “There are a handful of parts going on, but it’s more about the negative space and making it about the story, the vocal and the instrumental that runs throughout. It lends itself to being accessible by more lanes as far as radio formats; it was tougher to define as just a country song, or just a pop song or [adult top 40] song. It kind of fit everywhere.”
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Moi says the song’s sparse production partially resulted from Wallen’s own creative inclinations. “My natural instinct is to build these larger-than-life productions, and Morgan is great about coming behind me and being like, ‘Take this out and that part out,’ making sure I’m not doing too much on certain things,” Moi says. “I’d say he has had his best opportunity on the last two records to really imprint upon every aspect of it, from the songwriting to demos to our approach to tracking in the studio and postproduction. You can hear his contemporary, youthful thoughts over all of it.”
Similarly, Hadlock notes the minimal production on “Something in the Orange,” which utilized vintage mics and gear. “Sometimes old equipment is better at capturing emotion, and part of it is having a good room; I think people don’t always realize how much an instrument the room is that people are playing in,” says Hadlock, whose goal was a recording that sounded like Bryan was “playing right in front of you,” that would make “people listen to it and say, ‘Wow, that’s an amazing live recording.’ ”
For Shawn, the freedom to experiment was key in landing the right feel for Zimmerman’s “Rock and a Hard Place.” He and Zimmerman produced the song a half-dozen different ways before landing on the approach they used for the final recording. “We produced an almost John Mayer-esque, real smooth-sounding [version], then the acoustic version and one that was a dark piano ballad, with strings and fiddle that sounded almost like you were listening to a country Goo Goo Dolls song,” Shawn says.
As he did with “Fall in Love,” Shawn incorporated a “three-minute-long sample of just wind” into “Rock and a Hard Place.” “It feels like you are in a desert, and I wanted to feel that open style — we added fiddle and pedal steel, just subtly to bring out the emotive aspect. We wanted this song to feel like you could play it on acoustic guitar, but at the same time, it can still fit into a country radio modern format.”
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Shawn, who co-wrote Zimmerman’s “Fall in Love,” recalls the no-barriers approach he and Zimmerman took early on in developing his sound. “We thought about the kinds of songs he would want to hear and made the music as fans, just encompassing everything we love… There’s no gimmicks with this kid. His gift is making the music that defines him and his lifestyle.”
Ultimately, producers who encourage such experimentation — whether Combs’ cover of a 1980s folk-pop classic, Bryan’s poetic blend of country, folk and rock or Wallen’s country-to-hip-hop range — have shaped songs that are resonating with a multitude of listeners.
“He has always wanted to stay in the country lane, but we all knew he had a sort of contemporary side,” Moi says of Wallen. “If we planted our roots and built our foundation in a good spot, [we knew] we’d have the opportunity to explore other genres, and I think we’re in a sweet spot for that right now.”
This story originally appeared in the Oct. 7, 2023, issue of Billboard.
When producers Carter Lang and ThankGod4Cody worked on SZA’s culture-shifting 2017 debut album, Ctrl, the vibes were cozy and casual.
“We’d all bunker up and pretty much camp out in the stu’ and just be making stuff for weeks, if not months, at a time. Those adventures bonded us for life,” says Lang, 32. Adds Cody, 31: “I don’t even remember what the ultimate goal was except for making a fire album.”
But that “fire album” — one that’s still sizzling on the Billboard 200, 329 weeks after it debuted at No. 3 — created lots of unpredictable “pandemonium,” Lang says, from fans and the industry, and substantially raised the stakes for SZA, who waited five years before she released its follow-up, SOS.
“There was a little pressure to help her complete the tasks that she had at hand and for her to be happy with the final product and not have a sophomore slump,” Cody says. Yet re-creating Ctrl’s mellow, free-flowing and dependable environment was crucial to ensuring the artist felt comfortable enough to produce another masterpiece. Upon its release, SOS spent 10 nonconsecutive weeks at No. 1 on the Billboard 200, bolstering SZA’s superstar status. She earned her first Billboard Hot 100 No. 1 with “Kill Bill,” which she made with Lang and Rob Bisel, 31, both of whom also worked on other SOS top 10 hits “Good Days,” “Nobody Gets Me” and “I Hate U” (the lattermost of which Cody also co-wrote and co-produced).
“The three of us are the people she probably would trust the most to finish the music and bring it home,” says Cody, who with Lang and Bisel has credits on 19 of SOS’ 23 songs. “I feel like we all were involved in everything, except the artwork. It was like a group project in college.”
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Cody met SZA in 2014, when he was working closely with her Top Dawg Entertainment labelmate Isaiah Rashad, after she heard Cody making a beat in the room next door, came in and spontaneously recorded the song “Sobriety.” A year later, Lang — who had been working with R&B and hip-hop artists from his Chicago hometown like Chance the Rapper and Ravyn Lenae — ran into SZA at a studio and soon after joined her band while she toured her third EP, Z. He eventually met Cody at TDE’s Carson, Calif., headquarters while working on Ctrl.
Around Ctrl’s release, Bisel briefly met SZA while she was recording at Rick Rubin’s Malibu, Calif., studio, Shangri-La, where he had worked his way up from intern to house engineer. The two eventually reconnected at the beginning of 2020, when he flew out to Rubin’s house in Hawaii to help her record SOS. The album was not only made all over the place — from Lang’s Glendale, Calif.-based studio to SZA’s Malibu home to Westlake Recording Studios — but also with a variety of other producers, like Jay Versace, Michael Uzowuru and even Babyface.
“Back in the day, it would be Timbaland or Pharrell [Williams] and one person, or just them. Now it’s you and six other people, and you might figure out that there are two other people you had no idea about afterward,” Cody explains. “You have to be comfortable with collaboration. It’s a must at this point.”
Set the scene when you’re working with SZA. What’s her creative approach like?
Carter Lang: She takes her time to get in her zone, so it’s about being patient with each other. I can just sit there and jam on something or play beats and not feel like we’re giving any invisible pressure to each other to create. The music can really inspire [her], and she’ll just want to riff on something. It feels more like vibing out around a campfire.
How do you all work with each other and the other collaborators SZA brings into the fold?
Lang: We might be in different places, but the day after, we’ll be in communication about what has happened. We’ll send a track around, or she’ll incubate it. Having our own studios and then being able to converge without having to be in the same place is special, and that was created by our friendships and how fond we are of each other. We trust each other’s voices and what we’re going to put on the track.
Rob Bisel: It was a lot of jamming. [With] “Seek & Destroy,” that was all of us hanging out one afternoon like, “All right, we got to make something more upbeat.” It just felt like everyone was doing one thing at once, and, suddenly, a track fell into place.
Lang: That one was like butter. I stepped out of the room for a second and came back and saw all three of you guys [Cody, Bisel and Tyran “Scum” Donaldson] ripping on your parts. I was like, “OK, this is obviously a crazy moment.”
Carter Lang
Nate Guenther
Are you surprised by SOS’ tremendous success?
Bisel: I knew people would love it, but I didn’t know commercially how that would be reflected. I thought it would do well, but 10 weeks [at No. 1] is insane. I’m still processing that one. There was some stat about Aretha Franklin that we beat [becoming the longest-reigning No. 1 on Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums by a solo woman, beating out Franklin’s 1968 set, Aretha Now] and that one was like, “Whoa.”
Why do you think “Kill Bill” resonated so much?
Lang: It had this personality to it already. You can just see a cartoon playing out in your brain. The fact that people loved it and lifted it up like that echoes the sentiment of being able to put your thoughts out there in the most authentic and even aggressive way, but over such a sweet-sounding, psychedelic-sounding beat.
Bisel: A pretty common piece of wisdom you’ll hear from producers and songwriters [is], “Make the music that you would want to listen to yourself.” And that was 1,000% the case with that song. The first night we made it, I was like, “Wow, I think we really did something special.” I vividly remember [Cody being] one of the early believers in that song.
ThankGod4Cody: I remember we were talking about how to make [the title] appropriate. (Laughs.)
Bisel: I remember thinking, “I wonder if we need to give this a more on-the-nose title, like ‘Kill My Ex’ or something.” But the more we lived with the “Kill Bill” title, I was like, “Ah, this feels cool. I think it’ll stick with people.”
It’s fascinating how cohesive the album is, given how stylistically different the tracks are. How were you able to balance them out?
Cody: Even though it is different, it’s still all of us. We all listen to everything, including her. We’ll come back and be playing new music that each other has found, and it’s the most random music you’ll probably ever hear.
Bisel: But at the end of the day, she’s writing all of these songs and they come from such a genuine place. That is the glue that binds it all together.
Rob Bisel
Nic Khang
How have you seen SZA grow while making SOS?
Lang: She’s always exceeding her own potential. When I finally saw the tour and how insane she was going with her choreography, range and stamina, and then recalling all the moments we rocked out onstage, it really hit me. The transformation was super apparent. She feels refreshed and revitalized and excited to perform her music. She sounds so amazing, always has, but she has grown into her voice so well.
Bisel: She was already a pretty phenomenal writer when I met her, but her pen got sharper and more personal. I also think she got a lot faster, and the process of writing became even more natural to her the more time she spent working on this album. She’d have songs like “I Hate U” or “Kill Bill” where she would write them in under an hour. The ideas flowed more effortlessly from her.
How have you seen yourselves grow?
Lang: I learned a different level of collaboration where I really get a kick out of watching my friends play instruments. [Before], I used to want to be a part of everything and play, play, play. Being a backboard in the most neutral way and just letting the music happen was a different part of the process.
Bisel: [Working on SOS] forced me to step up. [When it comes to] my own creative output, [I] made so much stuff. For every song that I worked on that made the album, I probably made 100. It forced me to be more resilient and knowing you got to keep stepping up to the plate no matter how many times you strike out.
Cody: I learned what producing really consists of and how it’s deeper than music. It’s [about] you setting the vibe of the whole room, setting the vibe for the day and making sure that the artist is good and comfortable and in the best space to get out whatever ideas they have.
This story originally appeared in the Oct. 7, 2023, issue of Billboard.
“Every year ends, and I think to myself, ‘That was a little crazy!’ ” Jack Antonoff says with a laugh. “It shouldn’t feel familiar, but it does.” That’s because the 39-year-old studio polymath has rarely experienced a quiet 12-month period over the past decade, juggling multiple production and songwriting projects while fronting his own band, Bleachers.
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During the past year, Antonoff has helped steer Taylor Swift’s mega-selling Midnights, Lana Del Rey’s sweeping Did You Know That There’s a Tunnel Under Ocean Blvd and The 1975’s ultra-catchy Being Funny in a Foreign Language, while also prepping Bleachers’ fourth full-length. He has signed a new label deal with Dirty Hit Records, brought in label founder Jamie Oborne as manager and inked a new deal with Universal Music Publishing Group. (“It doesn’t feel like anything’s shaken up, just that the team’s got a couple new members,” Antonoff says of the moves.) All the while, he’s eyeing a potential fifth consecutive producer of the year, non-classical Grammy nomination and third straight win, which would be the first three-peat in the category this century should it occur.
Two years ago, Antonoff shared with Billboard his seven habits of highly effective producers. As he hunkers down in the studio for the next few months — finishing Bleachers’ follow-up to 2021’s Take the Sadness Out of Saturday Night and generally “chipping away at stuff” — he revealed his latest takeaways from his past year’s work.
Don’t Let Commercial Gains Distract in a Creative Space
Case study: Taylor Swift, “Anti-Hero”
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Midnights scored the biggest Billboard 200 debut of Swift’s career and her Eras Tour became the summer’s hottest stadium ticket, but Antonoff says that he marvels at how his frequent collaborator keeps her level of superstardom very much outside the studio. “There’s not a lot of panning back in the room — ‘Whoa, look at this [achievement], look at that!’ — because that would feel like popping the balloon,” he explains. “When I work with Taylor, there’s still just this person who has these life experiences and this remarkable gift of writing about them.”
See: “Anti-Hero,” the lead single from Midnights that sardonically prods at Swift’s insecurities. “When we made ‘Anti-Hero,’ I just thought, ‘Wow, that’s so honest and funny, and also so sweet and so sad,’ ” Antonoff recalls, adding that the song, which became Swift’s longest-leading Hot 100 chart-topper earlier this year, wouldn’t have worked if they had been preoccupied by her radio appeal during its creation. “It has this weird beat going through a tremolo — no part of me was like, ‘F–king A, that’s the song to take over the world!’ ”
Sometimes the Spark Takes Time…
Case study: The 1975, “Part of the Band”
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“Who would you want to work with?” It’s a question Antonoff often hears, and one he finds impossible to answer. “I can only want to work with someone based on knowing them and seeing where they’re going,” he says. When Antonoff met The 1975, he envisioned a creative partnership where he could add to the band’s sound on its fifth album — but still experienced “that weird kind of early-relationship stuff” on Being Funny in a Foreign Language, his first project with the British rock group.
“Part of the Band,” the restrained, stream-of-consciousness lead single, helped alleviate some of that awkwardness. “It wasn’t the first thing we did,” Antonoff recalls, “but there’s a big difference between the first thing you do and the moment that you’re like, ‘Oh, sh-t. We have that ability.’ Anyone can get in a room and carve out a song and make it sound halfway cool, but the idea of collaborating with people is doing something bigger than the sum of the parts.” Ultimately, “Part of the Band” unlocked the rest of Being Funny in a Foreign Language, which spun off five top 40 hits on the Hot Rock & Alternative Songs chart.
…And Sometimes a Hit Can Take a Really Long Time
Case study: Taylor Swift, “Cruel Summer”
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“That was always one of my favorite songs I’d ever done,” Antonoff says of Swift’s Lover standout, a synth-pop fantasia that became a fan favorite upon the 2019 album’s release. “Cruel Summer” didn’t become a hit single during the Lover album cycle, which was curtailed due to the pandemic, and Antonoff made peace with its cult-classic status. But earlier this year, as the song became the centerpiece of the opening of Swift’s mega-selling Eras tour, “Cruel Summer” began soaring in streams, then in radio play, and climbed all the way to No. 3 on the Hot 100, morphing into one of the defining songs of the summer of 2023.
“It was just like, a huge thumbs-up from the universe,” Antonoff says of the song’s viral resurgence this year. “I take it all as a reminder to do what you believe in, make the songs you believe in. You never want to do anything that you don’t believe in for the sake of success, because the only thing worse than doing something you don’t believe in is being recognized for that thing! … With [‘Cruel Summer’], I loved that it existed, and didn’t need anything more from it. It’s just this bizarre icing on the cake.”
Ambition Comes in Many Forms
Case study: Lana Del Rey, “A&W”
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Antonoff says that his most frequent collaborators share the characteristic of “becoming obsessed with understanding what their ambition is and how to access it constantly” rather than resting on their laurels. That creative curiosity manifests itself in different ways: For Swift, after the indie-folk storytelling on folklore and evermore in 2020, “There was this sense of blazing out of the cabin” with the personal pop of Midnights. Meanwhile, The 1975 came to Antonoff after several winding, esoteric full-lengths, and he helped push Being Funny in a Foreign Language into uncharted territory for the band: a tight, interlude-free pop-rock record.
For Del Rey’s Did You Know That There’s a Tunnel Under Ocean Blvd, the seven-minute centerpiece, “A&W” — which begins as a folk lament before flipping into a trap refrain midway through — resulted from experimenting with other album tracks like “Peppers” and “Taco Truck x VB,” mashing up sounds until arriving at the most innovative structure possible, according to Antonoff. “This sprawling thing was the most ambitious thing to do. A song like ‘A&W’ is just an example of what happens when you just know people so well that you can really support each other into strange places.”
Make an Entrance
Case study: Bleachers, “Modern Girl”
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Bleachers’ upcoming fourth album, which Antonoff and his six-piece group made with co-producer Patrik Berger and a few special guests, translates the jubilance of the band’s live show into a studio setting. Not every song is as boisterous as “Modern Girl,” released in September as the project’s lead single, but for Antonoff, its 1980s-indebted mix of jittery vocal energy and uncorked saxophone blasts captured “enough left-field sh-t that speaks to where the album is going” and was the obvious introduction.
“Putting out albums is like pulling at both the past and the future, and ‘Modern Girl’ just felt like this perfect shock and comfort moment, both honoring where Bleachers has been and where it’s going,” he says of the new album, due next year. “I’ve always believed in this ‘house’ mentality of just understanding what an album is, and ‘Modern Girl’ just feels like the biggest front door.”
A version of this story originally appeared in the Oct. 7, 2023, issue of Billboard.
“OK — now Ghostwriter is ready for us.”
For almost three hours, I have been driving an airport rental car to an undisclosed location — accompanied by an artist manager whose name I only know in confidence — outside the U.S. city we both just flew into. I came here because, after weeks of back-and-forth email negotiations, the manager has promised that I can meet his client, whom I’ve interviewed once off-camera over Zoom, in person. In good traffic, the town we’re headed toward is about an hour from the airport, but it’s Friday rush hour, so we watch as my Google Maps ETA gets later and later with each passing minute. To fill the time, we chat about TikTok trends, our respective careers and the future of artificial intelligence.
AI is, after all, the reason we’re in this car in the first place. The mysterious man I’ve come to meet is a “well-known” professional songwriter-producer, his manager says — at least when he’s using his real name. But under his pseudonym, Ghostwriter, he is best known for creating “Heart on My Sleeve,” a song that employed AI voice filters to imitate Drake and The Weeknd’s voices with shocking precision — and without their consent. When it was posted to TikTok in the spring, it became one of the biggest music stories of the year, as well as one of the most controversial.
At the time of its release, many listeners believed that Ghost’s use of AI to make the song meant that a computer also generated the beat, lyrics or melodies, but as Ghost later explains to me, “It is definitely my songwriting, my production and my voice.” Still, “Heart on My Sleeve” posed pressing ethical questions: For one, how could an artist maintain control over their vocal likeness in this new age of AI? But as Ghost and his manager see it, AI poses a new opportunity for artists to license their voices for additional income and marketing reach, as well as for songwriters like Ghost to share their skills, improve their pitches to artists and even earn extra income.
As we finally pull into the sleepy town where we’re already late to meet with Ghost, his manager asks if I can stall. “Ghost isn’t quite ready,” he says, which I assume means he’s not yet wearing the disguise he dons in all his TikTok videos: a white bedsheet and black sunglasses. (Both the manager and Ghost agreed to this meeting under condition of total anonymity.) As I weave the car through residential streets at random, passing a few front yards already adorned in Halloween decor, I laugh to myself — it feels like an apropos precursor to our meeting.
But fifteen minutes later, when we enter Ghost’s “friend’s house,” I find him sitting at the back of an open-concept living space, at a dining room table, dressed head to toe in black: black hoodie, black sweatpants, black ski mask, black gloves and ski goggles. Not an inch of skin is visible, apart from short glimpses of the peach-colored nape of his neck when he turns his head a certain way.
Though he appears a little nervous to be talking to a reporter for the first time, Ghost is friendly, standing up from his chair to give me a hug and to greet his manager. When I decide to address the elephant in the room — “I know this is weird for all of us” — everyone laughs, maybe a little too hard.
Over the course of our first virtual conversation and, now, this face-to-masked-face one, Ghost and his manager openly discuss their last six months for the first time, from their decision to release “Heart on My Sleeve” to more recent events. Just weeks ago, Ghost returned with a second single, “Whiplash,” posted to TikTok using the voices of 21 Savage and Travis Scott — and with the ambition to get his music on the Grammy Awards ballot.
In a Sept. 5 New York Times story, Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason Jr. said “Heart on My Sleeve” was “absolutely [Grammy-]eligible because it was written by a human,” making it the first song employing AI voices to be permitted on the ballot. Three days later, however, he appeared to walk back his comments in a video posted to his personal social media, saying, “This version of ‘Heart on My Sleeve’ using the AI voice modeling that sounds like Drake and The Weeknd, it’s not eligible for Grammy consideration.”
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In conversation, Ghost and his manager maintain (and a Recording Academy representative later confirms) that “Heart on My Sleeve” will, in fact, be on the ballot because they quietly uploaded a new version of the song (without any AI voice filters) to streaming services on Sept. 8, just days before Grammy eligibility cutoff and the same day as Mason’s statement.
When the interview concludes, Ghost’s manager asks if we will stay for the takeout barbecue the owner of the house ordered for everyone before the manager and I arrived. At this, Ghost stands up, saying his outfit is too hot and that he ate earlier anyway — or maybe he just realizes that eating would require taking his ski mask off in front of me.
When did Ghostwriter first approach you with this idea, and what were your initial thoughts?
Manager: We first discussed this not long before the first song dropped. He had just started getting into AI. We wanted to do something that could spark much needed conversation and prep us so that we can start moving toward building an environment where this can exist in an ethical and equitable way. What better way to move culture forward around AI than to create some examples of how it can be used and show how the demand and interest is there?
As the person in charge of Ghostwriter’s business affairs, what hurdles did you see to executing his idea?
Manager: When anything new happens, people don’t know how to react. I see a lot of parallels between this moment and the advent of sampling. There was an outcry [about] thievery in 1989 when De La Soul was sued for an uncleared sample. Fast-forward to now, and artist estates are jumping at the opportunity to be sampled and interpolated in the next big hit. All it took was for the industry to define an equitable arrangement for all stakeholders in order for people to see the value in that new form of creativity. I think we agreed that we had an opportunity to show people the value in AI and music here.
Ghostwriter’s songs weren’t created with the consent of Drake, The Weeknd, Travis Scott or 21 Savage. How do you justify using artists’ voices without their consent?
Manager: I like to say that everything starts somewhere, like Spotify wouldn’t exist without Napster. Nothing is perfect in the beginning. That’s just the reality of things. Hopefully, people will see all the value that lies here.
How did you get in touch with the Recording Academy?
Manager: Harvey reached out to Ghostwriter over DM. He was just curious and interested. It’s his job to keep the industry moving forward and to understand what new things are happening. I think he’s still wrapping his head around it, but I thought it was really cool that he put together an industry roundtable with some of the brightest minds — including people in the Copyright Office, legal departments at labels, Spotify, Ghostwriter. We had an open conversation.
I don’t know if Harvey has the answers — and I don’t want to put words in his mouth — but I think he sees that this is a cool tool to help people create great music. [Ultimately,] we just have to figure out the business model so that all stakeholders feel like they have control and are being taken care of.
I think in the near future, we’re going to have infrastructure that allows artists to not only license their voice, but do so with permissions. Like, say I’m artist X. I want to license my voice out, but I want to take 50% of the revenue that’s generated. Plus users can’t use my voice for hate speech or politics. It is possible to create tech that can have permissions like that. I think that’s where we are headed.
“Heart on My Sleeve” is Grammy-eligible after all, but only the version without AI voice filters. Why was it so important to keep trying for Grammy eligibility?
Manager: Our thought process was, it’s a dope record, and it resonated with people. It was a human creator who created this piece of art that made the entire music industry stop and pay attention. We aren’t worried about whether we win or not — this is about planting the seed, the idea that this is a creative tool for songwriters.
Do you still think it pushes the envelope in the same way, given that what is eligible now doesn’t have any AI filter on it?
Manager: Absolutely, because we’re just trying to highlight the fact that this song was created by a human. AI voice filters were just a tool. We haven’t changed the moment around the song that it had. I think it’s still as impactful because all of this is part of the story, the vision we are casting.
Tell me a little about yourself, Ghostwriter. What’s your background?
Ghostwriter: I’ve always been a songwriter-producer. Over time, I started to realize — as I started to get into different rooms and connect with different artists — that the business of songwriting was off. Songwriters get paid close to nothing. It caused me to think: “What can I do as a songwriter who just loves creating to maybe create another revenue stream? How do I get my voice heard as a songwriter?” That was the seed that later grew into becoming Ghostwriter.
I’ve been thinking about it for two years, honestly. The idea at first was to create music that feels like other artists and release it as Ghostwriter. Then when the AI tech came out, things just clicked. I realized, “Wait — people wouldn’t have to guess who this song was meant to sound like anymore,” now that we have this.
I did write and produce “Heart on My Sleeve” thinking that maybe this would be the one where I tried AI to add in voice filters, but the overall idea for Ghostwriter has been a piece of me for some time.
Why did you decide to take “Heart on My Sleeve” from just a fun experiment to a formal rollout?
Ghost: Up until this point, all of the AI voice stuff was jokes. Like, what if SpongeBob [SquarePants] sang this? I think it was exciting for me to try using this as a tool for actual songwriters.
When “Heart on My Sleeve” went viral, it became one of the biggest news stories at the time. Did you anticipate that?
Ghost: There was a piece of me that knew it was really special, but you just can’t predict what happens. I tried to stay realistic. When working in music, you have to remind yourself that even though you think you wrote an incredible song, there’s still a good chance the song is not going to come out or it won’t do well.
Do you think that age played a factor in how people responded to this song?
Manager: For sure. I think the older generations are more purists; it’s a tougher pill for them to swallow. I think younger generations obviously have grown up in an environment where tech moves quickly. They are more open to change and progression. I would absolutely attribute the good response on TikTok to that.
Are you still writing for other people now under your real name while you work on the Ghostwriter project, or are you solely focused on Ghostwriter right now?
Ghost: I am, but I have been placing a large amount of focus [on] Ghostwriter. For me, it’s a place that is so refreshing. Like, I love seeing that an artist is looking for pitch records and I have to figure out how to fit their sound. It’s a beautiful challenge.
This is one of the reasons I’m so passionate about Ghostwriter. There are so many talented songwriters that are able to chameleon themselves in the studio to fit the artist they are writing for. Even their vocal delivery, their timbre, where the artist is in their life story. That skill is what I get to showcase with Ghostwriter.
You’ve said songwriters aren’t treated fairly in today’s music industry. Was there a moment when you had this revelation?
Ghost: It was more of a progression…
Manager: I think the fact that Ghost’s songs feel so much like the real thing and resonate so much with those fan bases, despite the artists not actually being involved, proves how important songwriters are to the success of artists’ projects. We’re in no way trying to diminish the hard work and deserving nature of the artists and the labels that support them. We’re just trying to shine a light on the value that songwriters bring and that their compensation currently doesn’t match that contribution. We owe it to songwriters to find solutions for the new reality. Maybe this is the solution.
Ghost: How many incredible songs are sitting on songwriters and producers’ desktops that will never be heard by the world? It almost hurts me to think about that. The Ghostwriter project — if people will hopefully support it — is about not throwing art in the trash. I think there’s a way for artists to help provide that beauty to the world without having to put in work themselves. They just have to license their voices.
The counterpoint to that, though, is that artists want to curate their discographies. They make a lot of songs, but they might toss some of them so that they can present a singular vision — and many would say songs using AI to replicate an artist’s voice would confuse that vision. What do you say to that?
Ghost: I think this may be a simple solution, but the songs could be labeled as clearly separate from the artist.
Manager: That’s something we have done since the beginning. We have always clearly labeled everything as AI.
Ideally, where should these AI songs live? Do they belong on traditional streaming services?
Manager: One way that this can play out is that [digital service providers] eventually create sort of an AI section where the artist who licenses their voice can determine how much of the AI songs they want monetarily and how they want their voices to be used.
Ghost: These songs are going to live somewhere because the fans want them. We’ve experienced that with Ghostwriter. The song is not available anymore by us, but I was just out in my area and heard someone playing “Heart on My Sleeve” in their car as they drove by. One way or another, we as the music industry need to come to terms with the fact that good music is always going to win. The consumer and the listener are always in the seat of power.
There’s 100,000 songs added to Spotify every day, and the scale of music creation is unprecedented. Does your vision of the future contribute to a scale problem?
Manager: We don’t really see it as a problem. Because no matter how many people are releasing music, you know, there’s only going to be so many people in the world that can write hit songs. The cream always rises to the top.
Ghost: My concern is that a lot of that cream-of-the-crop music is just sitting on someone’s desktop because an artist moved in a different direction or something beyond their control. My hope is we’ll see incredible new music become available and then we can watch as democracy pushes it to the top.
Can you explain how you think AI voice filters serve as a possible new revenue stream for artists?
Manager: Imagine singing a karaoke song in the artist’s voice; a personalized birthday message from your favorite artist; a hit record that is clearly labeled and categorized as AI. It’s also a marketing driver. I compare this to fan fiction — a fan-generated genre of music. Some might feel this creates competition or steals attention away from an artist’s own music, but I would disagree.
We shouldn’t forget that in the early days of YouTube, artists and labels fought to remove every piece of fan-generated content [that used] copyrighted material that they could. Now a decade or so later, almost every music marketing effort centers around encouraging [user-generated content]: TikTok trends, lyric videos, dance choreography, covers, etcetera. There’s inherent value in empowering fans to create content that uses your image and likeness. I think AI voice filters are another iteration of UGC.
Timbaland recently wrote a song and used an AI voice filter to map The Notorious B.I.G.’s voice on top of it, essentially bringing Biggie back from the dead. That raises more ethical questions. Do you think using the voice of someone who is dead requires different consideration?
Manager: It’s an interesting thought. Obviously, there’s a lot of value here for companies that purchase catalogs. I think this all ties back to fan fiction. I love The Doors, and I know there are people who, like me, study exactly how they wrote and performed their songs. I’d love to hear a song from them I haven’t heard before personally, as long as it’s labeled [as a fan-made AI song]. As a music fan, it would be fun for me to consume. It’s like if you watch a film franchise and the fourth film isn’t directed by the same person as before. It’s not the same, but I’m still interested.
When Ghostwriter introduced “Whiplash,” he noted that he’s down to collaborate with and send royalties to Travis Scott and 21 Savage. Have you gotten in touch with them, or Drake or The Weeknd, yet?
Manager: No, we have not been in contact with anyone.
“Heart on My Sleeve” was taken down immediately from streaming services. Are you going about the release of “Whiplash” differently?
Manager: We will not release a song on streaming platforms again without getting the artists on board. That last time was an experiment to prove the market was there, but we are not here to agitate or cause problems.
You’ve said that other artists have reached out to your team about working together and using their voices through AI. Have you started that collaboration process?
Manager: We’re still having conversations with artists we are excited about that have reached out, but they probably won’t create the sort of moment that we want to keep consistently with this project. There’s nothing I can confirm with you right now, but hopefully soon.
Why are you not interested in collaborating with who has reached out so far? Is it because of the artist’s audience size or their genre?
Manager: It’s more like every moment we have has to add a point and purpose. There hasn’t been anyone yet that feels like they could drive things forward in a meaningful way. I mean, size for sure, and relevancy. We ask ourselves: What does doing a song with that person or act say about the utility and the value of this technology?
Ghost: We’re just always concerned with the bigger picture. When “Whiplash” happened, we all felt like it was right. It was part of a statement I wanted to make about where we were headed. This project is about messaging.
After all this back-and-forth about the eligibility of “Heart on My Sleeve,” do you both feel you’re still in a good place with Harvey Mason Jr. and the Recording Academy?
Manager: For sure, we have nothing but love for Harvey … We have a lot of respect for him, the academy and, ultimately, a lot of respect for all the opinions and arguments out there being made about this. We hear them all and are thinking deeply about it.
Ghostwriter, you’ve opted to not reveal your identity in this interview, but does any part of you wish you could shout from the rooftops that you’re the one behind this project?
Ghost: Maybe it sounds cheesy, but this is a lot bigger than me and Ghostwriter. It’s the future of music. I want to push the needle forward, and if I get to play a significant part in that, then there’s nothing cooler than that to me. I think that’s enough for me.
A version of this story originally appeared in the Oct. 7, 2023, issue of Billboard.
The students who began their undergraduate education this fall at any of Billboard’s top music business schools are the first since the class of 2019 who can actually expect to spend four years on campus and in classrooms.
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As the COVID-19 pandemic spread in March 2020 and learning moved online, every student studying the music business, or any other field, took on a double major — in resilience.
“The resilience and positivity that our graduating students have shown over the last three years has been an inspiration,” said Sean McNamara, president/CEO of the Liverpool (England) Institute for the Performing Arts — the school that Paul McCartney co-founded in 1996 — as he presided over LIPA’s graduation in 2022, the school’s first inperson commencement since 2019. “I believe these qualities will see them successfully embark upon the next stage of their careers.”
Those attending any of Billboard’s top music business schools will be solidly positioned to pursue careers in an increasingly complex music industry. The schools listed are selected through executive recommendations, alumni information provided by honorees from our multiple power lists, information requested from each school and a decade of reporting on these programs.
We continue to prioritize more affordable public colleges and universities while also aiming for broad geographic diversity. Beyond the music capitals of New York, Los Angeles, Nashville and Miami, students can find worthwhile curricula in Philadelphia, Memphis and New Orleans, as well as Syracuse, N.Y.; Kennesaw, Ga.; Stillwater, Okla.; and Cleveland, Miss. This list includes the Valencia, Spain, campus of Boston’s renowned Berklee College of Music, the United Kingdom’s famed BRIT School outside London, LIPA and the BIMM Institute, the largest provider of contemporary music education in Europe.
Two noteworthy historically Black universities and colleges, public Tennessee State University in Nashville and private Howard University in Washington, D.C., also merit inclusion this year.
Billboard presents this list of schools alphabetically and declines to rank institutions in what would often be an apples-to-oranges comparison. (The past year has seen widespread criticism of college ranking practices.) For students seeking quantitative measurements — from admission percentages to tuition and fees to graduation rates — those data points are available through impartial sources such as College Navigator, a resource of the Institute of Education Sciences, a division of the U.S. Department of Education.
By any measure, however, the colleges and universities here offer impressive opportunities for students seeking an edge in music-industry careers — running campus record labels, devising business plans, volunteering at top festivals, traveling to major music industry events and meeting with leading artists and executives.
The faculty and administrators at any of these schools would echo the remarks of McNamara as their students complete their studies and move to reshape the music business: “We are immensely proud of them and extremely excited to watch them progress toward the next chapter in their lives.”
Abbey Road InstituteLondon
Established as a music production school in 2015 by Abbey Road Studios and the owner of the famed location, Universal Music, the flagship program is now located inside London’s Angel Studios, the site of recording sessions for acts including Adele, The Cure and Sam Smith. The institute also has sister programs across Europe and in the United States, Australia and South Africa. It offers a one-year intensive program, designed in collaboration with the music industry, that dives deep into music production, sound engineering and the music business.
Course: The core program offered by all of the institute’s campuses worldwide is the advanced diploma in music production and sound engineering.
American UniversityWashington, D.C.
Created in 2013 under the guidance of SoundExchange co-founder John Simson, the business and entertainment program at American University is housed in the Kogod School of Business and is already making a name for itself in the industry. The university is the alma mater of, among others, Rich Kepler, day-to-day manager of The Killers, and CAA agent Zack Borson. Given the school’s location, it’s an easy stop for industry professionals visiting the nation’s capital as well as local executives. Recent guests include Michael Huppe, president/CEO of SoundExchange, and Audrey Fix Schaeffer, head of communications for concert promotion and production company I.M.P.
Course: Representing Talent: Agents, Managers & Lawyers, taught alternately by Simson and former Sony vp of marketing Stacy Merida, informs students about all participants on an artist’s team. The class also assists in managing regional recording artists.
Baldwin Wallace UniversityBerea, Ohio
This past year, Baldwin Wallace welcomed the largest-ever class of incoming students to its music industry program housed on its campus just 15 minutes from downtown Cleveland. The university, which in 2021 was invited to become an educational affiliate of the Grammy Museum, offers individualized instruction combined with hands-on experiences supported by Cleveland’s musical ecosystem, including the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Internship partners range from Live Nation properties to small indie venues. In spring 2023, students had the opportunity to enroll in tour management, a special topics course taught by Lamba Productions president Hadden Hippsley, who has helped produce festivals including Bonnaroo, Outside Lands and Governors Ball, while some students served as volunteers at Bonnaroo in June.
Event: Stephanie Yeager — tour accountant for Foo Fighters, Phish, Bon Iver, Neil Young and Blake Shelton — recently visited the tour management class to provide insight into the financial components of a successful tour.
Belmont University — Curb College of Entertainment and Music BusinessNashville
Located less than a half-mile from Nashville’s Music Row, Belmont’s Curb College offers unique access to networking opportunities with industry professionals as well as affiliated programs in areas including audio engineering and songwriting. Courses such as Inside a Booking Agency (taught in association with CAA) and The Artist’s Team (which features industry guests representing each of the main roles on a recording artist’s team) are complemented by hands-on opportunities such as summer term Bonnaroo U. A partnership with the Songwriters Hall of Fame yielded a new SHOF scholarship, and Belmont songwriting majors Lauryn Marie Hedges and Zander Jett were named the inaugural recipients in May. Hit-maker Desmond Child presented a master class on songwriting and navigating the industry, the first of many in a series.
Event: In April, Belmont hosted Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter Gavin DeGraw for an intimate Q&A about touring, marketing and getting his start in the business.
Berklee College of MusicBoston
Berklee offers two degrees for students pursuing careers in the industry: a bachelor of music in music business/management and a bachelor of arts in music industry leadership and innovation, which debuted in 2022. The school continues to attract top-level industry guests. Donald Glover, aka Childish Gambino, spoke in March on a keynote panel as part of its annual Career Jam that also featured former Beats by Dre president Luke Wood and Main Street Advisors founder and CEO Paul Wachter. Berklee also has an expansive alums network, which includes Live Nation senior vp of touring Jared Braverman and Netflix music data and insights manager Anahita Bahri.
Course: BPMI Live is a one-year program focused on the festival business. Students hone their skills in talent scouting, artist development, and concert promotion and production; the capstone includes opportunities to participate at Lollapalooza and Governors Ball, where they work as production and tour managers for artists.
Berklee College of MusicValencia, Spain
The sister campus to Boston’s Berklee College of Music offers a one-year master’s degree in global entertainment and music business attended by students from more than 20 countries who can concentrate in live entertainment, entrepreneurship and the record industry. The program optimizes its location, bringing all students to the Future of Music Forum in Barcelona and to the Great Escape in Brighton, England, a conference and festival showcasing 500 emerging artists from around the globe. In addition, it annually welcomes high-level industry professionals. This year’s honorary doctorate recipient, Yvette Noel-Schure, known for her work with Beyoncé, Prince, John Legend and Chloe x Halle, was recognized at the 2023 commencement ceremony in July, and recent guests include Ithaca Holdings/SB Projects founder Scooter Braun and manager Sophia Chang, who has worked with acts ranging from Paul Simon to Wu-Tang Clan.
Course: Emerging Technologies and New Creative Frontiers prepares students to both understand and capitalize on technological change, from artificial intelligence to virtual reality.
Berklee College of Music in Spain presented an honorary degree to veteran music publicist Yvette Noel-Schure, known for her work with Beyoncé and others.
Tato Baeza
BIMM University — BIMM Music InstituteLondon
Given full university status by Britain’s Department for Education in July 2022, the newly named BIMM University now includes the BIMM Music Institute as well as schools for the performing arts, film and TV. The BIMM Music Institute, with seven locations in London and other cities across the United Kingdom, Ireland and Germany, draws on a 40-year history of educating its students with high-end facilities, industry experience, knowledgeable lecturers and music business connections. Courses include music business; music marketing, media and communications; and event management to train those aiming for industry careers.
Alums: Ella Mai, Fontaines D.C. and James Bay are among the graduates of the school.
The BRIT SchoolCroydon, England
The BRIT School, a tuition-free institution that educates students ages 14 to 19 for careers in performance and creative arts and related industries, was co-founded in 1991 by the British government and the British Record Industry Trust (the charitable division of U.K. labels trade group BPI, which presents the BRIT Awards). The school has specialists teaching courses in live sound, production, recording, music tech and the music business — while also offering a comprehensive nonvocational curriculum. Not surprising given its history, the school has exceptional connections within the British music industry for career opportunities post-graduation. Students have participated in sessions with industry figures from Disney composer Alan Menken to YouTube global head of music Lyor Cohen.
Alums: Artists including Adele, Jessie J, Loyle Carner, RAYE, Amy Winehouse, Leona Lewis and Katie Melua have attended The BRIT School.
Artists including Adele (pictured), Jessie J, Loyle Carner, RAYE, Amy Winehouse, Leona Lewis and Katie Melua have attended The BRIT School in England.
Gareth Cattermole/Getty Images
California Institute of the Arts — The Herb Alpert School of MusicSanta Clarita, Calif.
CalArts students at the Herb Alpert School of Music immerse themselves in the business of music, but the school also ensures that every student — even those who plan to pursue nonperforming roles — lean into some type of music creation. Among its alums: Composer Raven Chacon and composer/sound artist Ellen Reid are both Pulitzer Prize winners; Greg Kurstin, a producer, songwriter and multi-instrumentalist, has won nine Grammys and worked with artists including Adele, P!nk, Paul McCartney and Kendrick Lamar. On the business side, courses such as AI Sonic Explorations, The Art of the Mix and The Art of Recording keep students ahead of the curve regarding evolving technology and work-flow models.
Faculty: Laurel Halo, a composer, producer, live musician and DJ, joined the faculty in fall 2022.
California State University, NorthridgeLos Angeles
While copyright law, publishing and licensing concepts, and the intricacies of recording and publishing contracts are key areas of focus in the classroom at CSUN, the school’s music industry studies program also delves into entrepreneurship and experiential learning. Aside from regularly hosting industry panels, the program — which counts singer-songwriter Andy Grammer as an alumnus — is home to Vove, a student-run record label where participants select, record, promote and manage an “artist of the year.” Thanks to its L.A. location, the school also boasts a robust internship program where all students must earn four credits working in a sector of the music business, from publishing to labels to live events. In addition to its undergraduate program, CSUN offers a master’s in music industry administration, with class schedules designed for fully employed students and midcareer professionals.
Event: The university recently presented a panel and networking discussion of songwriting with Jud Friedman, an Academy Award- and Grammy-nominated songwriter (Whitney Houston’s “Run to You” from The Bodyguard); Bonnie McKee, who co-wrote hits for Katy Perry, Christina Aguilera and Kelly Clarkson; and Joe Poindexter, vp of digital at Pulse Music.
Delta State University — Entertainment Industry StudiesCleveland, Miss.
Located in the heart of the Mississippi Delta, Delta State’s entertainment industry studies program offers small class sizes and hands-on opportunities including its entertainment industry entrepreneurship and record-label practicum: Fighting Okra Records, where attendees work at the student-run imprint. The school annually draws industry speakers, including recent guests Boo Mitchell, Grammy-winning producer and owner of Royal Studios in Memphis, and Jim Sonefeld, drummer, author and songwriter (Hootie & The Blowfish).
Alums: Erin Moorman, marketing coordinator at Syntax Creative, and Libby Switzer, executive assistant at Creative Strategic Management, both in Nashville.
Drexel University — Westphal College of Media Arts and DesignPhiladelphia
Students at Drexel’s Westphal College of Media Arts and Design begin taking music business-specific classes when they start the program freshman year. That allows them to engage in the school’s unique course offerings, including Women in Music Industry and Fan Engagement: One Direction, which uses the former boy band as a focal point to examine the past, present and future of fan engagement. As part of the curriculum, students spend six months working in the industry; this year’s class interned at companies such as Netflix, Goldenvoice, Universal Music Group, Republic Records, WME, Live Nation and AEG.
Alums: Universal Music Group senior director of artist and label services Deb Keller and The Orchard vp of international label management Marissa Putney.
Full Sail UniversityWinter Park, Fla.
Full Sail offers several nonperforming degree programs in areas including music business, audio production, recording arts and the live industry-centric program show production. The school also regularly hosts events where students can learn from first-hand experience of those in the industry. Its recent speaker roster includes Mike McGrath, tour manager for Jason Aldean, and Randall Foster, vp of business development at Symphonic Distribution, and it hosts executives — and potential employers — from companies including Microsoft Game Studios, Fever, Samsung, Disney and Carnival Cruise Line.
Alumnus: Music business program graduate Michael Cariglio is a vp of marketing at Republic Records.
Hofstra UniversityHempstead, N.Y.
The number of students enrolled inthe music business program at Hofstra has nearly tripled since the curriculum launched in 2017. The school has created a new bachelor of science in music business and also offers a music business major (for nonperformers) that leads to a bachelor of arts. Hofstra welcomes over 50 guest speakers on campus every year and offers internship opportunities year-round in New York (30 miles west of campus). A state-of-the art MIDI computer lab was completed in January, and a recording studio including a control room, live room, isolation booth and recording console is due to open at the end of the year.
Faculty: Kenyatta Beasley, a professor of music business who began teaching earlier this year, is a trumpeter, composer and music producer who has worked with Tru-Sound New York, Interscope/G-Unit Records, Helen Han Creative and Art vs. Transit Production.
Howard UniversityWashington, D.C.
The Warner Music/Blavatnik Center for Music Business at Howard University, funded by a $4.9 million gift in 2021, offers a one-year fellowship program that provides fellows with coaching, specialized curriculum, mentorship and experience working with partner organizations. The Howard University School of Business takes the approach that the key to addressing the underrepresentation of Black executives and professionals in music and entertainment is intense coaching and immersion programs, and the Warner Music/Blavatnik Center frequently hosts industry executives for fireside chats, master classes and other programming. Recently, Combs Global president Tarik Brooks presented a “master mogul” panel discussion, and DJ Drama, a co-owner of Generation Now (home to Lil Uzi Vert, Killuminati and Jack Harlow), had a session with students.
Course: Among the university’s noteworthy offerings is the class The History of the American Music Industry: What Isn’t Black Music?
Indiana University — Jacobs School of MusicBloomington, Ind.
At IU’s Jacobs School, emerging professionals have the opportunity to establish a career path that pairs their interest in the music industry with a large set of career options. Among multiple paths of study, undergraduate students can earn a music-oriented entrepreneurship certificate that includes foundational courses at the university’s Kelley School of Business. The music school also hosts a strong roster of guest speakers. Austin Wintory, an award-winning composer for film and video games, recently visited the campus to talk with students in an event hosted by the Music in Games student organization and the office of entrepreneurship and career development.
Event: Indiana native John Mellencamp spoke about his life and career in March at the university’s Franklin Hall during a symposium discussing the social and cultural impact of his music. University president Pamela Whitten subsequently announced that Mellencamp would be donating archived collections of his work to IU.
John Mellencamp (left) answered questions from music writer Anthony DeCurtis during a symposium about his life and career at Indiana University in March.
Michael Claycamp/Indiana Daily Student
Kennesaw State University — Joel A. Katz Music and Entertainment Business ProgramKennesaw, Ga.
Integrated within the university’s Coles College of Business, the Joel A. Katz Music and Entertainment Business Program teaches the business side of the industry while providing practical experiences, on-the-job training and exploration of career opportunities. The program offers an annual study abroad trip to London, including an all-day visit with international executives at Sony Music Entertainment and Universal Music Group. It recently formed a partnership with the book and online platform Music Business Toolbox and its creator, Bryan Calhoun, that provides tools, templates, forms and guidance to help students manage their music careers. The program recently established a partnership with the Dolby Institute, an educational division of the audiovisual technology company.
Artist in residence: David Ryan Harris, John Mayer’s guitarist and a singer, songwriter, producer and multi-instrumentalist, is Kennesaw’s latest artist in residence as of fall 2023.
Liverpool Institute for the Performing ArtsLiverpool, England
Within LIPA’s curriculum on management for the creative industries and performing arts, students take the music industry management pathway train alongside performers, technicians, designers and filmmakers in the school’s facilities. In their final year, students participate in a three-month internship that reflects their career goals with companies such as Warner Music, Live Nation and Sentric Music Publishing. LIPA was co-founded in 1996 by Paul McCartney and Mark Featherstone-Witty, who retired as LIPA principal/CEO in 2021, succeeded by Sean McNamara.
Speaker: Robert Plant participated in a Q&A with students in November 2022.
Los Angeles College of MusicPasadena, Calif.
LACM’s music business program — which offers a 12-quarter bachelor of music degree and a six-quarter associate of arts degree — is committed to offering students hands-on experience and networking opportunities. On average, a student will meet and interact with more than 100 guest speakers and master class guests per year from all facets of the music industry, and the program also features field trips to companies such as Spotify, Hipgnosis, Universal and Disney. Recent industry guest speakers include Billboard’s Keith Caulfield, managing director of charts and data operations, and publishing reporter Kristin Robinson.
Faculty: Music business department head Erin Workman’s experience in artist development includes working with Zac Efron, Miley Cyrus and Ashley Tisdale.
Los Angeles Film School — The Los Angeles Recording SchoolLos Angeles
Located in the heart of Hollywood, the Los Angeles Recording School (a division of the Los Angeles Film School) is equipped with professional recording studios that let students train in a real-world work environment. The school offers an array of degrees across its music and entertainment business programs, which let students gain analytical and practical skills both in the classroom and in the field. New for 2023 is an 18-month online competition program that allows those with an associate degree to earn their bachelor of science in entertainment business. The school also boasts an active speaker roster. Recently, SunPop managing partner Will Tenney spoke with students from the entertainment business program during an on-campus event.
Alumnus: As president of Record Plant Studios, Jeff Barnes oversees business operations and booking and has worked with Justin Bieber, Beyoncé and Ariana Grande, among other artists.
Loyola University — School of Music and Theatre ProfessionsNew Orleans
New Orleans is among the world’s most vibrant music cities, and Loyola University’s music industry studies program, within the School of Music and Theatre Professions, helps students build careers around their passions. Students learn from professors who are active in the industry and can create their own professional projects alongside creative peers. Loyola’s two Hilton-endowed professorships fund student travel and participation in various music industry conferences such as NAMM, Americana and Mondo — with future plans for South by Southwest and Music Biz. The program this year launched songwriter and music business camps where students worked directly alongside Grammy-winning rapper-producer D’Mile and Pulse Music Group’s Ricki Rich. The school also partners with the city so students can help produce the annual Freret Street Festival, which has drawn over 20,000 attendees a day.
Course: Record Label Operations brings a working music-label entity to campus. With a professorship-funded budget of $5,000, students in the course form a team to function as a label, recruiting and developing a young artist for commercial release.
Middle Tennessee State UniversityMurfreesboro, Tenn.
Located less than an hour from the site of the Bonnaroo festival, where students regularly gain hands-on experience, MTSU offers an expanded focus beyond music recording into areas including live-event production, broadcast and streaming, and immersive audio for music, film and gaming. As such, courses in venue management, mixing techniques in immersive audio, and concert promotion and touring are popular with students. The school also hosts a revolving mix of industry speakers. Mixing engineer Andrew Scheps and recording engineer George Massenburg are among recent visitors to campus.
Event: This summer, MTSU students produced over 30 segments for Hulu’s Bonnaroo Music Festival channel, which streamed the event.
Monmouth UniversityWest Long Branch, N.J.
Monmouth’s music industry program combines coursework from the university’s business school with its music and music business curriculum, a hybrid model that prepares students for a range of opportunities in the arts industry. Home of the Bruce Springsteen Archives and Center for American Music, the school incorporates hands-on activities like its student-run record label, Blue Hawk Records, and leverages partnerships with major music organizations, tech companies, agencies and a state-of-the-art recording complex in Asbury Park. Last year, the new Monmouth Artists for Diversity & Inclusion released an album on Blue Hawk, and the organization’s founding members were awarded a joint senatorial and gubernatorial proclamation from the State of New Jersey for contributions to society.
Alumnus: Joe Bognanno is director of music publishing licensing and partnerships at TikTok/ByteDance.
Musicians InstituteHollywood
Anderson .Paak was once a drum student and a drum teacher’s assistant at Musicians Institute, whose Hollywood location puts it at the nexus of the entertainment world. The school’s music business program offers detailed specialization in every area of the industry through a frequently updated curriculum taught by professionals. Courses cover the gamut from law and contracts to music publishing and licensing to artist and tour management, A&R and record labels, distribution, promotion and marketing. Musicians Institute is also continually honing industry partnerships that serve as a direct line into the workforce through internships.
Event: During a recent online social media workshop, BRXND vp of artist management and digital strategy Dan Tsurif discussed the importance of social media marketing and explained how platforms can aid developing artists and brands.
New York University — Steinhardt School of Culture, Education and Human DevelopmentNew York
The ongoing addition of courses like advanced topics in recorded music and music publishing, co-taught in person by RIAA chairman/CEO Mitch Glazier and National Music Publishers’ Association president/CEO David Israelite, is just one way NYU Steinhardt ensures students are learning from the leaders at the cutting edge of the music business. For the course Village Records, students work with independent artists on career development areas including live performance, sound recording, product management, publicity, management and fan engagement. The Steinhardt program also allows students to take classes at NYU’s Stern School of Business and offers options for them to complete studies on its campus in Nashville (through a program designed in partnership with Universal Music Group) or at any of 12 global campus sites including Los Angeles, London, Paris and Shanghai.
Speaker: David Gray, executive vp of U.S. A&R and head of global creative for Universal Music Publishing Group, is an executive in residence and engages with students at least three times each semester.
New York University — Tisch School of the Arts, Clive Davis Institute of Recorded MusicNew York
A holistic understanding of business, performance, production, writing, history and emerging media is the goal of the Clive Davis Institute, which counts Maggie Rogers among its notable graduates. Students work with resident artists, such as singer-songwriter Dawn Richard and singer Jamila Woods, and executives in residence. Columbia Records A&R executive Katie Vinten served in the latter role this past year and also led a summer accelerator program. Other recent speakers included Atlantic Records president of A&R Pete Ganbargs, Hipgnosis Songs Fund founder and CEO Merck Mercuriadis and Patreon co-founder and CEO Jack Conte. In partnership with Billboard, the institute offers an online music industry essentials course. In 2022, Barry Manilow and school officials joined Davis at the opening of the Clive Davis Gallery at NYU. The institute is also expanding geographically, recently launching a study abroad program in Berlin.
Event: Pop Conference 2023, held in April at the institute, hosted guests including Timbaland, NPR music critic Ann Powers and Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis.
Sony Music Entertainment chief creative officer Clive Davis, who endowed New York University’s Clive Davis Institute for Recorded Music, attended the 2022 opening of a permanent gallery focusing on his career at the school’s campus in his native Brooklyn.
Sean Zanni/Patrick McMullan/Getty Images
Northeastern University — College of Arts, Media and DesignBoston
Northeastern’s bachelor of science in music with a concentration in music industry encourages students to become entrepreneurial thought leaders and change agents across the music business. Aside from classes focused on topics including actionable analytics in the music industry and artist management, the school is home to Good Dog Licensing, a student-run music synch company through which students receive hands-on experience and offers four- or six-month co-op experiential learning opportunities. New this year is a university chapter of the nearly four-decade-old nonprofit Women in Music, dedicated to fostering equality in the music industry through the support and advancement of women.
Event: In honor of World Mental Health Day in October 2022, the Women in Music Boston chapter presented Mental Health Awareness for Artists and Their Allies, a panel to guide musicians with resources and information about emotional well-being.
Occidental CollegeLos Angeles
Occidental’s music business courses are embedded within its liberal arts curriculum, and many of the students in music department classes major or double-major in other disciplines such as economics, math, politics, chemistry, philosophy and physics. The school’s location gives students access to a capital of the music industry, providing immersive education through internships and other opportunities. In 2022, Occidental formalized its relationship with Warner Music Group (whose former CEO Steve Cooper is an alumnus) and has since hosted events with WMG executives for students from all majors who are interested in a career in music business.
Event: Warner Chappell Production Music vp/head of legal and business affairs Steve Touchton met with students in March to share his 25 years of experience, field questions and offer advice on entering the business side of the music industry.
Oklahoma State University — The Greenwood School of MusicStillwater, Okla.
OSU’s bachelor of science in music industry, established in 2017, remains the fastest-growing music program at the school. Recent developments include the Greenwood School of Music’s new facilities, which opened in 2021, and a collaboration this year with Kicker, a Stillwater-headquartered audio manufacturer with which students partnered on the research and design of a potential new product. The student-run music company Poke U comprises a record label, music publisher, concert promotion and musical products divisions, and the school has a robust speaker and alums network. Once again, the New York Philharmonic residency returned to the university’s McKnight Center for the Performing Arts, adjacent to the campus, with the opportunity for students to work with the business staff of the orchestra.
Event: Alumnus Garth Brooks in April delivered two concerts at OSU: a scholarship benefit show and a free performance exclusively for OSU students.
Rhodes College — Mike Curb Institute for MusicMemphis
Rhodes College and the Curb Institute benefit from their location in the artistically vibrant city of Memphis, as Curb students tap experiential opportunities in the city. In 2022, the institute launched the Curb Community Fellows program, which provides funding for students to work directly with local professionals and organizations such as Goner Records, the Overton Park Shell, the Memphis Music Initiative and the STAX Museum of American Soul Music. On campus, they can engage with Dredge, a student-produced zine and social media platform focused on the Memphis arts scene, and Beyond Beale, a student-produced podcast that explores underresearched aspects of the city’s music history. The first two seasons received honorable mention recognition by the NPR Student Podcast Challenge.
Courses: In fall 2024, Rhodes will offer two new certificates in music industry studies — content production and arts entrepreneurship — that complement the college’s core liberal arts mission.
State University of New York, OneontaOneonta, N.Y.
The music industry program at SUNY Oneonta is designed to appeal to aspiring executives, as well as students interested in technical fields like audio production or who are entrepreneurial musicians. In addition to the core courses, music industry students are required to complete a sequence of courses in the SUNY Oneonta School of Business, an array of general education courses and at least one course from a slate of electives such as concert production, through which students conceive, plan and manage a series of live concert events on campus and in the Oneonta community. Off-campus learning and networking experiences include a faculty-led trip to the annual NAMM trade show in Los Angeles.
Events: John Mayer recently engaged with music industry program students through a video conference; another event connected students with members of the Dave Matthews Band. (Mayer and Matthews are both clients of business manager and Cal Financial Group founder Rit Venerus, an Oneonta alumnus.)
Syracuse University — Bandier Program for Recording and Entertainment IndustriesSyracuse, N.Y.This year marked the return of the Bandier Program’s international immersion trip, with a dozen students traveling in May to meet with more than 40 executives at music companies in Singapore; Jakarta, Indonesia; Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam; and Bangkok. On campus, students choose from an ever-evolving variety of courses and also tackle entertainment industry exploration, the program’s capstone, for which seniors must build a functioning and profitable real-world business. The previous academic year also saw rapid growth in the readership of Full Rate No Cap, a free weekly email of industry analysis that program director (and former Billboard editorial director) Bill Werde crafts for students to read; the email underpins a weekly, programwide student-led discussion about industry trends and headlines. Subscribers number in the thousands and include top executives at virtually every major music company around the globe.
Event: The weekly Wednesday-night speaker series this past academic year scheduled over 25 guest lectures from industry pros including Warner Music Group chief digital officer/executive vp of business development Oana Ruxandra and Apple Music creative director/radio host Zane Lowe.
Temple University — Klein College of Media and CommunicationPhiladelphia
Temple University’s Klein College offers an interdisciplinary bachelor of arts in audio and live entertainment that also includes courses in the music and business schools. The college’s mission is to empower and prepare the media creators of tomorrow to be ethical, analytical and creative leaders. The faculty has a wealth of industry experience, and courses are often complemented by presentations by industry creatives and executives including Grammy and Academy Award winner Questlove and American Association of Independent Music CEO Richard Burgess. (Philly native Questlove received the college’s 2022 Lew Klein Excellence in the Media Award.) A student-run record label interfaces with student radio, TV and other ventures in a collegewide media ecosystem, and a study abroad program offers opportunities in top global music markets such as Tokyo and London.
Alumnus: Multiple Grammy-winning producer Noah Goldstein, founder of Ark Publishing, has worked with artists including Kanye West, Frank Ocean, Travis Scott, Rihanna and Paul McCartney.
Questlove received the Lew Klein Excellence in the Media Award from Temple University’s Klein College of Media and Communication in 2022.
Kayla Oaddams/Getty Images
Tennessee State UniversityNashville
One of the nation’s historically Black colleges and universities, TSU is located in the heart of Nashville and offers a commercial music program as a concentration within the school’s music department. Perks include small class sizes, targeted courses such as music business and law, access to a variety of internships and mentor programs, and ample guest speakers who have recently included producer Rodney “Darkchild” Jerkins and BMI executive director, creative Shannon Sanders, a TSU alumna. Harry Fox Agency client solutions coordinator Dashawn Howard and Grammy-nominated producer Dwane “Keywane” Wier are among other alums.
Event: In May, the music business accelerator program, which offers Black college students in Tennessee career resources to help them break into the industry, held an event at TSU in partnership with Amazon Music, Nashville Music Equality, the RIAA and Wasserman Music.
University of California, Los Angeles — Herb Alpert School of MusicLos Angeles
Spurred by the success of the UCLA Herb Alpert School of Music’s music history and industry degree program and its music industry minor, the school this fall introduced a major in music industry. The new program, which complements the performance, composition, musicology and music education programs already offered, provides students with a high level of liberal arts integration to ensure they master the skills needed for a successful creative industry career. Classes immerse students in a range of subjects from data science for the music industry to music and activism, and internship and employment opportunities abound as those enrolled in the program benefit from the school’s relationships with an array of music companies. A major gift from former Warner Bros. Records chairman Mo Ostin, who died in 2022, funded construction of the Evelyn and Mo Ostin Music Center.
Speaker: Amy Davidman, founder of and agent at TBA Agency, recently spoke with students on campus.
University of Colorado DenverDenver
The university offers two course tracks for students interested in pursuing a career in the music industry: one for performing students and another to provide the chops to work as managers, publishers, music supervisors and/or marketers. Students in the lattermost progression take courses examining music supervision and synch licensing, music publishing, music marketing, law and the music industry, artist management and more. Additionally this year, the Mechanical Licensing Collective appointed faculty member Dan Hodges as one of its educator ambassadors to advise students on the importance of registering music with the MLC to collect interactive streaming royalties.
Partnership: The Nashville Songwriter Association International this past year launched a chapter at the university.
University of Miami — Frost School of MusicMiami
Under director Serona Elton, whom the Music Business Association recently named the first music business educator of the year, Frost’s music industry program is expanding. It recently launched a bachelor of arts in music industry major for nonperformers, an addition to its well-established bachelor of music in music industry and master of arts in music industry. Along with its diversity of courses and proximity to the Latin offices of many major music companies, the program also offers a variety of student-run enterprises including ’Cane Records, Cat 5 Music and Frost Sounds, as well as a campus radio station, concert production organization, numerous concert halls and music industry student association.
Course: Students in recorded-music operations learn about A&R, production, distribution, marketing/promotion, licensing and royalties and use Chartmetric to analyze the consumption of their favorite artists’ tracks.
In May, Serona Elton (right), director of the music industry program at the University of Miami’s Frost School of Music, received the Music Business Association’s first music educator of the year award, presented by president Portia Sabin.
Laura E. Partain
University of North Texas — College of MusicDenton, Texas
Options abound at UNT’s College of Music, located on the northern edge of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex and the country’s largest public-university music program. It offers degrees from bachelor to doctoral levels and is home to the world’s first jazz studies degree program, now in its 75th year. The school is continually adding faculty and courses to the curriculum, offered fully online or in a hybrid format, with options ranging from music leadership to performing arts management to touring. The curriculum leading to a master’s in music business, launched just three years ago, supports student goals within music technology and entrepreneurship. In 2021, the Yamaha Institution of Excellence program included the UNT College of Music in its inaugural list of 10 distinguished colleges and universities recognizing extraordinary commitment to innovation in the study of music.
Event: Julian Peterson, associate director at Gearbox Software and a composer, audio programmer, sound designer and researcher, recently met with students.
University of Rochester — Eastman School of MusicRochester, N.Y.
It’s all about flexibility at the University of Rochester’s Eastman School. Students can earn a double degree, a minor concentration or just take courses related to their interests. Among the options, Eastman offers a master of arts in music leadership and a commercial music industry experience through the Beal Institute for Film Music and Contemporary Media, where students have opportunities to work with the Rochester Institute of Technology’s film, animation and video game development schools. The Electroacoustic Music Studios at Eastman introduces students to electronic music technologies. And student-run ensembles provide commercial and music leadership skills, including the Empire Film and Media Ensemble, a live-to-film ensemble, and OSSIA, the school’s student-run new music ensemble.
Alumnus: Eastman’s Beal Institute was named after its founder, alumnus Jeff Beal, a five-time Emmy-winning composer of film and TV scores. Beal is a frequent guest speaker and students have traveled to Los Angeles to work with him for an immersive experience.
University of Southern California — Iovine and Young AcademyLos Angeles
USC’s Iovine and Young Academy innovators forum hosts leaders in diverse disciplines, industries and the arts to present and discuss problems facing society and to critique real-world projects. Recent guests have included TOMS Shoes founder Blake Mycoskie. That’s just one way the interdisciplinary-focused academy provides a framework for students interested in the music industry to study topics from reimagining virtual concert events to building a new artificial intelligence-driven music platform. Endowed by industry entrepreneurs Jimmy Iovine and Andre “Dr. Dre” Young, the academy offers a bachelor of science in arts, technology and the business of innovation and a master of science in integrated design, business and technology.
Event: For the Masters of Scale podcast in June, Iovine spoke with Angela Ahrendts, former CEO of Burberry and former senior vp of Apple, about success, motivation and education.
University of Southern California — Thornton School of MusicLos Angeles
Close ties with the L.A. music community are core to the DNA at USC Thornton, which offers both an undergraduate and 18-month master’s program in the music industry. Students benefit from an abundance of networking, internship and job opportunities across areas such as touring, marketing, branding, business and law, and the school provides a classroom guest list that recently included Ali Harnell, global president/chief strategy officer of Live Nation Women. Collaboration and camaraderie are also emphasized among students who will one day join an alums network that includes DreamWorks Animation senior vp of TV music Alex Nickson and Warner Records senior vp of creative sync licensing Julia Betley.
Events: Thornton’s producers forum has hosted speakers including Merck Mercuriadis, founder and CEO of Hipgnosis Songs Fund, and Lee Zeidman, president of Crypto.com Arena, Peacock Theater and L.A. Live.
William Paterson UniversityWayne, N.J.
William Paterson University’s music and entertainment industries program focuses on today’s industry from an independent artist and label perspective. Courses, including the popular Backstage: The Business of Touring, focus on three key pillars of music income: live, recording and publishing. The program has hosted visiting resident experts including Kate Hyman, former vp of A&R for BMG, and Mark Robinson, senior vp of music strategy, business and legal affairs at Paramount. And while internships are a core tenet, students also benefit from industry professionals who come to campus, including Vydia co-president Jenna Gaudio in a recent visit.
Alums: Theresa Abou-Daoud, production assistant with Tyler, The Creator, and Nathaniel Meyerowitz, associate manager of experience at Wasserman, are among recent graduates of the program.
This story originally appeared in the Oct. 7, 2023, issue of Billboard.
“I just need to make one edit. Could we start talking while I do it?” Mike Dean asks, lowering himself into a leather office chair in his Los Angeles home studio.
He swivels his seat to face a widescreen monitor and scrolls through scores of waveforms in his Pro Tools session, searching for the right spot to doctor. It’s a song from Diddy’s just-released The Love Album: Off the Grid called “Another One of Me” (featuring The Weeknd, French Montana and 21 Savage), and mere days before its Sept. 15 release, Dean has been tasked with crafting a slightly cleaner version of 21’s verse.
Despite the clear urgency of the work, Dean appears unfazed, steady. “It’s OK. I like to do eight things at a time,” he explains while he rotates among vocal editing, answering questions, FaceTiming a manager and ripping from his bong. This is not the first time the writer, producer and engineer has performed last-minute miracles for an A-lister’s song — and it certainly won’t be the last.
Dean’s stoicism and keen editing ear are among the many reasons he has been hip-hop’s most in-demand collaborator for decades, often skillfully guiding the genre’s most temperamental and perfectionistic talents — from Kanye West to Travis Scott to Jay-Z — to complete their best work.
He recalls the February 2016 evening when West played his seventh studio album, The Life of Pablo, for fans at Madison Square Garden in New York. With a packed house of nearly 20,000 at the arena and 20 million tuned in at home through a livestream, West shared a sampling of its tracks, including now essential hits like “Famous” and “Ultralight Beam.” As on the six West albums that had preceded it, Dean was a trusted collaborator in creating Pablo. Fans waited well past the event’s scheduled start time, but few could have guessed the reason for the delay: Almost none of the songs were done.
“It was crazy,” recalls Dean as he clicks over to his camera roll on the monitor, searching back to the photos he took that night. “We had 16 songs unfinished. I think we finished something like four songs, gave them to Kanye, and he went down there and played that shit in front of 20,000 people.
“Then I finished some more and rushed from the studio. We had to jump out of the cab about 10 blocks before the arena because the traffic was so bad,” he continues, still searching for that specific night on his camera roll, casually whisking his cursor past other culture-defining moments in the process: The Weeknd’s headlining Coachella set, West’s Yeezus-era Saturday Night Live performance and many raucous Scott shows. “I ran to MSG, fought to get to the basement and then to the floor and gave him the memory stick.”
Michael Tyrone Delaney
Finally, Dean locates one of the pictures of that night. In it, West stands in the center of the frame in a red long-sleeve shirt and black baseball cap, arms lifted above his head. Under the halo of a white spotlight, he appears to be leading a religious rite rather than a listening party. Dean stands to West’s right sporting a flat bill hat from MWA, his label, and a slick black windbreaker. Despite the preceding chaos, Dean’s countenance betrays no signs of alarm. “I’m calm, really,” he says with a shrug, zooming in on himself in the background. “I’ll put a memory stick in a computer in front of thousands of people.”
His most prolific relationship of all is with West, whom the Texas born-and-bred producer-engineer met when he was still living in Houston circa 2002. In the preceding years, Dean had become a local legend, defining the sound of the Dirty South by producing, writing and mixing records for Geto Boys and Scarface and touring with acts like Selena.
“Kanye first came to my house when he was working on his mixtape, songs like ‘Through the Wire.’ I remember he had on a backpack and tight pants,” he says with a laugh. “You know, people in Texas don’t wear tight pants.”
Though West has now cycled through dozens — if not hundreds — of other creative collaborators throughout his career, Dean has been his singular through line. He has been with the artist from mixing parts of The College Dropout (2004) to producing much of Donda 2 (2022). He says the key to fostering such long-term relationships with artists, including West, is to not “try to follow them too much” and “stand up for what [I think] is right” for a song. “You let them do their thing but steer them in the right direction,” he says, though he admits “that gets harder, though, as they get bigger and bigger.” (Dean declined to comment about the current status of his creative relationship with West.)
Michael Tyrone Delaney
Don Toliver, who worked on his 2020 hit “After Party” with Dean, says he loves collaborating with the producer because he is “the ultimate badass at mixing and mastering. If Tony Montana from Scarface worked in the music industry, he would be Mike Dean, deep into his craft and bringing that essence and vibe to the music as well.”
But Dean’s best-known strength is his penchant for synthesizers. From where he sits in his studio, these analog instruments cocoon him, stacked in columns up and down all four walls of the room. He points out a few of his favorites: a Memory Moog from 1978, the latest Prophet from Dave Smith Instruments. Then Dean gestures across the room to a clunky keyboard with colorful knobs and buttons and wood grain siding. “That’s the one Michael [Jackson] played ‘Billie Jean’ on. That’s the most important synth in the room,” he says, beaming. Of course, he has other favorites in storage — in his two garages, his other studio or his Texas house.
In recent years, some Dean acolytes have dubbed him “The Synth God.” “Every year, I turn the synths up a couple dBs [decibels],” he jokes. “On [West’s 2005] Late Registration, the synths were really tucked in, but since then it has just gotten louder and louder.”
While many of his contemporaries add so-called “producer tags” — audio identifiers on tracks where they stake their claim — Dean mostly shies away from that. “My sound is usually my tag,” he says matter-of-factly. It’s a claim that’s evident on records that feature what has become known as a Mike Dean Outro — a 30-second- to minute-long ending devoted to Dean’s transcendent synth work; one of the best-known examples is on Scott’s 2019 single “Highest in the Room.” Of the 59 total producer credits and 106 songwriter credits Dean has amassed on the Billboard Hot 100, “Highest in the Room” is one of his few No. 1s (along with Scott’s Drake-featuring “Sicko Mode” and Kid Cudi collaboration “The Scotts”). “That’s when the outro really went viral,” he says, though that was far from its first iteration. He has been doing these characteristic endings since West’s “Stronger” in 2007. “I just always jam on songs as much as possible… But [the outros are] becoming almost cliché to me now,” he says.
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Savvy rap fans have known about Dean since the 2000s — or earlier, if they followed Houston hip-hop — but the producer, 58, has intentionally increased his visibility in recent years. During the COVID-19 lockdowns, Dean started to see himself as more of an artist in his own right. He began a series of solo albums, released annually every April since 2020, each titled 4:20, 4:21, 4:22 and, most recently, 4:23.
He also started livestreaming as he played around on his synths, building avant garde instrumentals from scratch as teenagers frantically sent goat and fire emojis in the chat. The videos let Dean be more transparent with his process, and they amassed a following quickly, even among his famous friends like The Weeknd — who texted Dean, “You should open for me on tour.” Soon he was performing with the singer in stadiums around the world. To keep up with his other musical commitments, Dean worked out of a 10-foot-by-10-foot makeshift studio, designed for the back of his tour bus.
“It wasn’t too hard to work out of there, really,” he explains. “I did Travis’ second album in the back of a bus once. Plenty of my songs have been made like that.” It was during that time on the road, he says, that he created much of the songs and score for The Idol, the dark HBO drama co-created by The Weeknd and Euphoria producer Sam Levinson. The show was widely panned and ultimately canceled; one of its highlights, however, was Dean’s scoring work and soundtrack. Apart from co-writing the score for Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II, The Idol was Dean’s first major gig as composer, and his synth mastery laid the perfect morose undertone for the action onscreen.
Dean himself was also written into the show, playing “Mike Dean,” and furthering his mystique. In his first scene, he arrived in a matte black Tesla, emerging from the car’s butterfly doors in a fog of smoke, bong in tow — a meme-worthy entrance caricaturing his real-life demeanor and pot habit. It was Levinson’s idea: “I was first approached about Euphoria season two,” Dean says, which ultimately did not happen. “Then they asked me if I wanted to do music for The Idol, and when I met Sam, he asked me, ‘Well, do you want to be in the show, too?’ I guess he thought I was funny.”
Michael Tyrone Delaney
But moving forward, Dean says TV and film work isn’t a priority: “I’d work on some select projects but not too much. I’m looking more at being an artist and putting out my own music and touring than anything else right now.” And as usual, he’s dutifully at work behind the scenes on the year’s biggest records. In 2023, he has already lent his expertise to Scott’s Utopia, the Idol soundtrack and Metro Boomin’s Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse soundtrack. And because Dean is never entirely predictable, he also worked on Paranoia, Angels, True Love by Christine and the Queens.
“I don’t work much,” he insists. “I just smoke weed and f–king hang out and make music — it’s not work.” He swiftly turns his head to look back at the monitor, refocusing. “Sorry,” he says. “I actually need to get to editing this.”
This story will appear in the Oct. 7, 2023, issue of Billboard.