Interview
Page: 19
Kimbra is very aware of how big things became.
“Let’s be honest: me and Gotye’s names kind of became household names for a period of time,” the New Zealand-bred, New York City-based singer-songwriter reflects after catapulting to unlikely superstardom with their Hot 100-topping, Grammy-winning 2012 smash “Somebody I Used to Know. The duet went on to become one of the longest-charting hits in Hot 100 history, and remains one of the best-selling digital singles ever.
Over a decade later, however, Kimbra now finds herself picking up the pieces from a particularly turbulent period of her life since her last studio album, 2018’s Primal Heart. The title of her new album — A Reckoning, which was released last month — came to her before the songs did, as a perfect summation of what happened to her following a personal loss, the end of a relationship and a deal dissolution with longtime label home Warner Records, all amidst the pandemic.
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A Reckoning is the result of choosing to turn inward and confronting her own emotions and thought patterns head-on. Co-crafted with Son Lux’s Ryan Lott, with features from Erick the Architect, Pink Siifu and Tommy Raps, the honest, genre-blending body of work twists aggressive beats, R&B-influenced melodies and shape-shifting organic sounds around vulnerable confessions, prayers and empowering declarations. “Replay!” is an ode to compulsive thoughts partially inspired by Kelis’ vocal delivery on “Caught Out There,” while “Foolish Thinking” is a moving piano ballad composed as a letter to her future daughter.
“We love people going through the rough, and then emerging to tell us what the war was like,” she says. With a renewed confidence in herself as a storyteller and in her purpose as an artist, Kimbra is ready to share what she calls a “redemption story.”
It’s been a while since 2018’s Primal Heart. What’s happened since?
We’ve all been through so much. The Primal Heart campaign came to an end, and I began to think about what I want to say next. I went through a stage of really struggling to write. Maybe it was because I was struggling to articulate what I was feeling. I hadn’t landed on something that felt honest. I don’t want to sell people something I don’t really believe.
I wrote “Save Me” in 2020 as things were really collapsing. My relationship at the time was coming to an obvious end as well. I was breaking up with my label. My team was changing. I moved upstate. I lost my best friend out of nowhere back in New Zealand. Some real lows.
I think, sometimes, our greatest breakthroughs happen at rock bottom. “Save Me” was a bit of a breakthrough – that feeling of hopelessness and being stuck with yourself. I struggle with a lot of anxiety and difficult thoughts. If I hold them in, it gets dangerous. I named something in me that I needed to get out. That’s where A Reckoning began. I had titled it before I even had all the songs.
Did the thought ever come that music wasn’t going to be the space for you anymore?
No, and that’s the biggest fear of all: that music won’t save me, and I won’t be able to get out what I want to say. When you keep turning up and believing that there’s something there, it comes through. It took other people — like Ryan Lott, the co-producer — to help identify what the sounds were going to be to tell the story. It’s an act of faith to make an album. You can turn a s—t sandwich into a beautiful liberation. [laughs]
Was there a sonic mood you were striving for?
I think the cohesion in my work is often the storyteller at the center, the voice that leads you through these different worlds. There’s a juxtaposition in the aggression of certain sounds against something very soft and tender, which is really me in a nutshell. I have all these conflicting things that live within me. My art is an attempt to translate my inner world to be understood, like all of us. The sonic identity is ever-changing, because I’m ever-changing.
When you talk about longing to be understood, does that extend to your former label?
Yeah. They wanted to extend my deal. It was already at six albums. They wanted to go to eight. They wanted to pick the producer. I can’t work that way. I need to have the agency in my work to put the right people in place to tell the story. I don’t do this to just sell a product. It’s my life.
It was a rock to my confidence. That’s another kind of reckoning: How bad do you want it? Are you gonna fight to get your music out there, form the right team, and keep turning up when you don’t have also someone breathing down your neck saying, “When’s the record done?” Now you have to motivate yourself.
How did you assemble a team of collaborators on your own?
I met Ryan doing a co-headlining tour with Son Lux. He has such a strange sound world to his music. I bring these catchy melodies – an almost R&B thing. That was an intriguing combination. I often bring people in when I’m struggling to finish a song, or there’s something not quite right. Bringing rappers on to jump on songs, or bringing Questlove in to help the rhythm section of the track — who’s doing this in their own work that could throw another color into the canvas? I’m hunting for the moment when I go, “Ah, that captures something I haven’t yet said.”
“Gun” was written in a Rihanna writing camp. Are you writing for others often?
I’ve done a little bit, not a ton. The whole place was dedicated to writing, every person in the studio. Her vocal coach would come through and guide me on how to perform the demo as her. I’m trying to embody the strength I see in Rihanna.
I’m just a kid from New Zealand. I still can’t believe I have a billboard up in Times Square. I look at a lot of the pop stars as being a lot more strong and badass than I am.
Fake it ’til you make it.
Exactly. And that’s what I did for that song. I don’t feel like I’m the s—t right now, but I’m gonna sing “I’m the s—t, so shout my name,” because I know Rihanna would say that and sell that.
There’s a certain kind of oppression that happens to artists, where you start to believe that you are a product of the people. I had to confront the fact that a lot of people I trusted had broken that trust. It’s about building yourself back up again and realizing there’s this inner strength that deserves to be spoken out loud. I just needed to wait until I was at the time of my life where I could sing a song I wrote for Rihanna. I think it was meant to be mine all along.
Can you talk about the collaborative doors that opened after “Somebody I Used to Know”?
I mean, let’s be honest: me and Gotye’s names kind of became household names for a period of time. There was a lot of respect that came from that song. When I would reach out to my favorite guitarist, they would know my name and have an interest in working together. And it wasn’t just, “Oh, you’re that girl with the random, massive song.” It was, “You made something that I really felt.” What a blessing that I got to penetrate the hearts of millions of people all over the world.
Are there sessions that didn’t see light of day that you wish had?
Yeah, there are songs lying around with various people. I just don’t know whether to name them, because it might still come out. The mysterious thing about music is you make things, and they may not reemerge for another 10 years. That’s another act of faith, to just keep making things, regardless of what timeline they’re on.
Are there plans for a musical reunion with Gotye?
Gotye has been working very hard on music. I’m sure he’ll come out the cave at some point to talk about it. It is not my place to talk on that, unfortunately. I’ll leave that up to him. But, let me tell you… anything is possible in this world. [laughs]
Do you retreat from popular music when you’re making music?
That’s a good question. I do take intentional breaks. Maybe just instrumental music for a while. I think constantly listening to vocals is a lot of stimulus for a vocalist. If you listen to SZA all the time, you might be writing a lot like SZA. Sometimes I will just listen to Philip Glass records or something, so I can work out what is my most genuine melodic perspective right now.
I’m really inspired by artists that are very ambitious in their records. I think Kendrick Lamar is one of those artists. He takes on a spirit of jazz that I think is very important — being able to jump around a lot, but have a very clear message and vision. He knows why he’s here and what he’s doing. It’s aggressive, it’s tough, but he can really speak truth to a lot of things in the world, in a very prophet-like way. Frank Ocean has been one of those groundbreaking songwriters in the last 10 years that I still go back to, with some of the most timeless songs.
Do you feel you still grapple with imposter syndrome?
Totally. I have that mentality still of being a young kid, insecure in high school. The only way I try to combat that is to remember that everyone feels that to a certain extent. You got to accept that you never really feel, at any point of your career, that you’re deserving of that place, or that you’ve done enough work to get there. It’s trusting something I’ve done connects with the world. It’s bigger than me.
I try to be humble about that. If they believe I am this person that’s really helped them through it, then let me turn up to that. Even though I feel s—tty today, that’s the service of the work.
What is your approach to feedback about your music online?
More and more, I’ve realized that anytime you take a risk and try to do something slightly daring, there will be people who don’t like it. There are people who like you to stay small, especially with women. Sometimes when I receive negative feedback, I almost take it as an affirmation that what I’m doing is pushing into something new. It makes sense that someone hates that version I did of a Beyoncé song, or something. Don’t get me wrong: it can really deflate me when I get something negative. People can be very cruel. But f—k, it’s just part of it, man. Every job has its thing that you have to be able to armor against.
So many artists who have come before me have experienced people not giving a s—t when their records came out. They were reviewed terribly. And then years later, they’re heralded as absolutely game-changing. People’s perception of you is always going to be changing. You’re not in control of that. At least there’s a reaction! Better than people kind of being like… eh.
You mentioned covering Beyoncé – you recently took on “Break My Soul.”
I’m always looking to find a new angle on something. I love the dissection process of a song that we all know really well. It comes back to wanting to have fun with music. If I’m always thinking about what other people want to hear, it’s not very fun. But if I’m loving it, then chances are someone else is probably going to feel that same way.
You have a Soundfly vocal arrangement and production class. What are your thoughts on the amount of female engineers in the studio? Has there been a shift?
I’ve seen the conversation change most among men. That’s where it’s important. Women have always been talking about this, but if we’re not being heard or respected by the people that have the power, nothing changes. It’s the same with the #MeToo movement. What we really needed was men to be in the conversation, rather than just being outside of it. I’ve seen a shift there.
There’s a musicality that comes from women in production and technical roles that is different. The feminine in all of us is very healing. We’ve been living in a patriarchy for so long. I think people are sensing we need a shift. It starts with conversations. If more people talk about it, we’re going to be more open to our cultural settings changing as well.
As the dust settles after releasing this record, what goals do you have, personally and professionally?
I really want to take this music to people one-on-one, and lift people up after all this s—t we’ve been through. I’m excited for that.
I’ve written more music in the last five years than I think have in my f—king entire career. I have more bodies of work that I’m currently working on: one is highly collaborative, and one is super dance floor with BRUX, the producer who did “Replay!” We started writing a lot of celebratory, anthemic dance tracks. I’m working on a lot of very heavily leaning R&B stuff. And then I want to make a very organic band record.
As I approach thinking about motherhood in the future, it would be cool to get as much out in this time of my life so I can take a break for a bit.
Personally, I’m always on a journey to keep healing. I make music so that I can better myself, and to be a more empathetic person in the world. That’s always my hope, through the vehicle of music, that I’m growing as a person, and hopefully helping people.
P!nk acknowledges that parts of her new album, Trustfall, could be considered corny by today’s pop standards. Take lead single “Never Gonna Not Dance Again”: Produced by Max Martin and Shellback, the happy-go-lucky groove finds the pop superstar shrugging off problems large and small in favor of unabashed movement, and declaring, “One thing I’m never gonna do/ Is throw away my dancing shoes,” before the bright, splashy chorus kicks in.
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“Never Gonna Not Dance Again” is marked by a dance-pop earnestness that’s seldom heard at the top of streaming charts or in viral hits these days. “I was like, ‘Well, it’s kind of my formula, isn’t it? That sounds like a P!nk song,’” she tells Billboard during a January Zoom conversation of the single, letting out a sigh at the idea of a retread. “And then by the end of it, I’m like, ‘I don’t care. I feel happy. I don’t care if it’s cheesy!’”
Trustfall, out Friday (Feb. 17) on RCA Records, could have been a darker affair — after all, the follow-up to 2019’s Hurts 2B Human was conceived during the pandemic, during which her son Jameson endured a scary battle with COVID-19 at the age of three in 2020, and her father succumbed to cancer in 2021. Yet P!nk’s ninth studio album confronts personal trauma with tempo: working with a wide array of collaborators, from longtime producer Greg Kurstin to ascendant dance artist Fred Again.. to Swedish folk-pop duo First Aid Kit, the best-selling pop star pushes the pace on Trustfall songs like “Runaway,” “Last Call” and the title track, while learning to appreciate the growth that periods of loss often present.
“I think it is one of the best records I’ve ever made,” says P!nk. “And I feel about it the way I felt about Missundaztood and I’m Not Dead and possibly The Truth About Love. And so I’m really excited and anxious.”
P!nk is also eager to dive into her upcoming Summer Carnival 2023 tour, where the longtime arena headliner will bring her cavalcade of pop hits to stadiums across North America, beginning July 24. Although P!nk says that she has found a sense of calm thanks to time at home with her family — husband Carey Hart, and children Willow and Jameson — she also can’t wait to perform in front of the biggest audiences of her career.
Ahead of the Trustfall release, P!nk discussed how the album came together, returning to the road and the way TikTok has (and hasn’t) changed her approach to pop. [Ed. note: This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity.]
What moves Trustfall into that class of albums that you feel like are some of your best?
It took time, because COVID gave us all a little bit of time. It’s been three years, and for a little while, at least, there wasn’t a lot else going on. Normally I’m like, “Okay, turn on the faucet, let’s go” — like a race to the finish, how many songs can you write? And they’re all meaningful to me, it’s all my feelings. But this [album] felt like, “Yeah, I felt like that last year, but I don’t feel like that anymore. Now I feel like this.”
The sequencing of this album was really important to me, in case someone does listen to it from start to finish. Because life is like this to me — it’s an emotional roller coaster and it’s a f–king journey, and this album is that. This album could have easily been, Side A is Roller Skate Time, and Side B is No Sharp Objects in the Kitchen Time! But that’s not life. Life is messy and beautiful and messy again.
It was so easy to name the record. I feel like getting out of bed, and getting dressed, and dropping your kids off at school, and being in a relationship, and parenting, and participating in elections — it requires a lot of trust. And most of the time, we feel like we’re falling backwards, and we don’t know where the ground is.
And so much has changed since your last record — which was less than four years ago, but the world has been upended in a lot of ways.
I think we’re all walking around with this sort of low-level trauma that we’re not even aware of. In the last three years, for all of us, this has been our generation’s “thing.” Growing up in a military family and having a dad tell you, “You’ve never been through s–t” — and I’m like, “Well, I have personally! It’s all relative, dad!” But then you’re like, “No, we really haven’t been through anything, as a whole.” And it feels like we have now, and are still, and we don’t know what’s coming next as a whole.
Plus, I lost my dad. And then a month later, I lost another person that was incredibly close to me. And then I’m raising little people, and celebrating my 17th anniversary — and I didn’t think I’d ever be able to say that, but neither did he. But yeah, it’s just life, man. Adulting is a lot.
What was that process like, in terms of experiencing that heaviness, reflecting on those themes and synthesizing into a handful of songs on this album?
Probably harder for the producer than it was for the writer. [Laughs.] Poor Greg Kurstin. When your writer walks in with the song “Hate Me” in their pocket, you know it’s gonna be an awkward day. God bless him — he’s been through so many of those days with me. I just walk in and start crying, because for me, I’m like an open wound walking around in the world. I’m so sensitive, and I can’t hide it. And so people just have to just watch me cry sometimes. Or I go on rants, too. That’s never good!
But I’ve always done that. “Family Portrait” was that for me. It was this really, terribly uncomfortable situation for my family, and [the song] was kind of like an outing. If you’re in my life, then you kind of signed a waiver that I get to write about it. Carey knows! So you just write what you feel. And that’s why I’m not writing like, happy love songs, because I’m useless when I’m happy.
When did these songs start coming together? Was it a burst of creativity, or over a prolonged period of time?
It was three years in the making. “Lost Cause” and “Never Gonna Not Dance Again” were the two album-starters. And “Never Gonna Not Dance Again” was my reaction to adrenal fatigue, cortisol, stress. It was like, “F–k this. If the world’s ending and we’re sliding sideways off our axis, I’m gonna get my roller skates. Let’s take a cocktail class online! What are we doing?” So those songs on the record were a reaction to, “I can’t care all the time. I also need to feel joy, and let that s–t run off my back.”
There’s a lyric in the song “Kids in Love” that goes, “If you don’t f–k up, then you’ll never learn,” and it really pops out.
I learn through experiential f–kery. I mean, that’s my whole life. I have to remember that as a parent, also. I have to remember that.
How you end up working with First Aid Kit on that song?
I’ve been a fan of theirs for so long. And then I went to the BRITs [in 2019], and they gave me this ridiculous award, and I got to sing with Dan [Smith] from Bastille. And we’re hanging out at the after-party, and these girls were there, and Dan introduced them — and I heard him wrong, so I didn’t know it was First Aid Kit. So I was thinking they were some band that I didn’t know about! I was like, “What kind of music do you make?” And they were nice about it. And I was like, “What’s the name of your band again?” They’re like, “First Aid Kit.” I was like, “Shut… the front… door. I’m your biggest fan.”
It was a full turnaround. It was like, P!nk didn’t know who the f–k they were, and then I was like, “No, you don’t understand! I’ve been listening to you forever! You’re from Sweden!” I was like, “Do you think like we can all start a band! Dan can be the singer, and I’ll learn drums!” So we started a band in our heads — me, First Aid Kit and Dan from Bastille. I think that’d be a cool band. But I just wanted to work with them, because they’re awesome. They’re my new Indigo Girls.
Pop music has also changed so much since your last album was released — TikTok is now enormous, and these years-old songs are being revived…
[P!nk visibly winces]
I definitely see that face you just made!
I’m sorry. I’m sorry!
Are you getting that a lot through your kids, the TikTok dances and challenges?
No, they don’t have phones. I won’t let them! I was asked to be on a TikTok two nights ago and I made them very upset when I said “No, thank you.” I mean, look, I don’t want to be a dinosaur. But I want to bring back Atari. [Laughs.] Play Frogger and ExciteBike.
Things have changed, and that’s not what I do. And I’m okay with that. The people that have been coming to my shows, we’ve grown up together. I’m a pop fan. I like The Beatles, I like doo-wop music, I like Broadway. I come from a different thing, and I’ve got to be true to me. I don’t get played on the radio that much anyway, so I’m not really going for that. When I’m making a record, I’m like, “Who am I? How do I feel? What do I need to exorcise?” And, “How’s this going to be [performed] live — what can I climb onto for this song? Or will I be able to say this without crying and humiliating myself?”
So yeah, I can’t do that. But that’s great, because there’s so many people that can!
The thing is, you do still get a good amount of radio play — “Never Gonna Not Dance Again” hit the top 10 of a few Billboard charts. And of course, you have tons of older hits that still get played on radio, and have been streamed millions of times. But I’m always interested in how veteran artists react to, and want to pay attention to, new technologies and platforms.
I don’t really know. With me, when you’re a certain age and a woman, they tell you that what you do doesn’t matter, really, anymore, so just do what you do. And I’ve kind of always felt like that — at 16, I felt like that. But I don’t write songs for other people. I’m very narcissistic when it comes to songwriting, in a very pure way. I write what needs to be written for me, and if somebody else can relate to it, then that’s awesome. We’re all having this human experience, and we’re not all that different.
And I love parts of it, too! Like, Billie Eilish — how do you even put a song out like that, and then it’s No. 1 on radio? Like, 10 years ago, that’s unheard of. These artists are pushing the envelope and we need them to push things forward. My daughter is obsessed with Olivia Rodrigo, and that’s awesome to me, because that girl fronts a full band and writes her own music and writes great songs, and I’m super here for that. I think it’s awesome. It’s just not going to be me.
You’re playing stadiums in a few months, and mentioned thinking about how these new songs are going to be played live. Where are you at in the process at this point?
It’s been a while, but we had a tour meeting the other night with all the key players, and it was sort of that first creative [meeting]: Thinking outside the box, what can we do, how can we top that, what’s physically possible more than once? Like, getting shot out of a cannon — that would be fun, but you can only do that once!
I walk away from meetings like that like, “Oh God, I forgot how much fun I’m about to have.” It puts years back on my life. It is so fun, what I get to do, and I love it so much. And I love that Jameson’s gonna remember it, because he’s gonna be old enough, and I love the people that I get to work with. And then I get new material — there’s nothing worse than going and playing a show, and it’s all the same. But you get new shit to work with, and you’re like, “Oh, I can do anything I want with this, literally! Can I fall from the ceiling and live?”
No ceilings on stadiums, though!
True. There’s that feeling where, “You put two Fenway Park [shows] on sale, for who? Billy Joel? Stevie Wonder? Oh, just me?” It’s very exciting, and I feel like it’s the longest fluke in history, too.
“We’ll never do a second album again,” jokes Inhaler’s Elijah Hewson, feigning the exhaustion that, at this time last year, was very real for the well-coiffed singer-guitarist and his Inhaler band mates.
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After two years of pandemic dormancy, the Irish pop-rockers stormed the stage in 2022, amassing more than 100 gigs in support of It Won’t Always Be Like This, the group’s blistering post-punk-goes-pop 2021 debut. The album, which was largely written and recorded during COVID, hit No. 1 in the U.K. and the Dubliners’ native Ireland, shocking the new-coming foursome.
And so came the need for a worthy follow-up — this time on a working band’s notoriously chaotic schedule. But the tireless lads pulled it off, booking long studio hours in early 2022, between tour stints and festival sets.
Just 15 months after their thrilling curtain-raiser — and with nerve-racking slots at Glastonbury and Lollapalooza now in the rear-view — Inhaler returns with Cuts and Bruises, another jangle-and-thump effort full of confidence and anthemic abandon, out this Friday (Feb. 17) through Geffen. The guitar-heavy sequel sharply merges callbacks to the band’s ‘80s muses — The Stone Roses, Joy Division — with touches of American fascination, courtesy of the band’s run of packed club shows across the U.S. last spring. Suddenly Bruce Springsteen and Bob Dylan have joined the party as influences.
After last year’s hectic return to normalcy, the band — Hewson, guitarist Rob Keating, bassist Josh Jenkinson and drummer Ryan McMahon — plans for a busy 2023, with another list of festivals booked, not to mention opening slots for Harry Styles and Arctic Monkeys. It’s easy to imagine a 1975-like obsession before this next album cycle is finished, although the band mates, who have been making noise together since their early teens, can scarcely believe any of it.
Billboard caught up with the ascendant band to retrace their wild 2022, unpack the origins of Cuts and Bruises, and learn how a well-timed documentary influenced their promising next chapter.
How was your very busy 2022, and being able to get back on stage and debut songs written in pandemic isolation?
Ryan McMahon: When we went back to gigging, seeing all these new, unfamiliar faces, singing back the songs was quite a shock to our system. And that was crazy for us to get back out touring and going into places in America, for example, where we never thought we’d be able to go and people knew our songs. We were talking a lot about how we’re very guilty of feeling like we’ve got this sense of imposter syndrome in our minds. We don’t feel worthy, in a lot of ways, of some of the things we get to do.
How has the reception been with U.S. fans, who have been a little slower to catch Inhaler fever?
RM: It’s surreal, because we always pictured America as this fictional place.
Elijah Hewson: I think people [in America] listen to music in a really different way than they do in Europe. Not that it’s like they don’t listen to music as much in Europe, but I feel like when we came here, right off the bat, people were very warm to us and we felt like it gave us a lot of drive and a lot of it made us feel like, oh, “Come on, lads.” And I guess it’s that age-old thing of Irish people coming to America and feeling like the whole world’s at their feet, at their fingertips.
Since you last spoke to Billboard, your debut album, It Won’t Always Be Like This, hit No. 1 in several countries, including your native Ireland. What’s it like to have a chart-topper in your own country?
RM: We still almost feel like it didn’t happen. I mean, when you get into a band when you’re 12 or 13, you don’t ever think that you’re going to go and take on the world with your boys. You just want to get into a room and make noise, because you’re not really that good at anything else. And so fast forward nine, 10 years later, and you wake up to find out that your album that you wrote during a pandemic is No. 1 in the country that you grew up in? It’s hard to put into words, really.
Let’s talk about the new album. First off, why call it Cuts and Bruises?
EH: I think we kind of realized that being in a band is maybe, sounds silly, but more of a commitment than we thought. Not in a sense that we have to work, but I think in relation to our relationships with each other. It’s a little bit like a marriage, and I think there’s always going to be a little bit of residual scar tissue left over after so many years of working and playing with each other.
We’re starting to realize that it’s important to look after those relationships and pay attention to them, and we have a responsibility to look after each other. And I think that just kept coming up, after the pandemic and being on the road together, it just felt like the only thing we could write about. So I guess the title reflects that, in a way. And it’s not a serious injury. It’s something that we’re able to brush off and heal from.
In a way, the pandemic bought you guys extra time to fine-tune your first album. But Cuts and Bruises was made in the real world, in between a rigorous touring schedule. How much harder was this one to finish?
EH: Switching between those two processes was very exhausting. And I think we all kind of crawled out the back end of 2021 just feeling like we were just really, really — not burnt out, but I think we’d given everything that we could, and I think in some ways the pressure of that, and the spontaneity of it, and the speed at which we did things probably did help the album. And thankfully, we had our producer [Antony Genn] in there to kind of light the fire under our arse, as he often does. And that really kept us on the straight and narrow while we were back in the studio.
How did this new influx of touring experience — and growing confidence in your abilities — influence the writing of Cuts and Bruises?
EH: I think we learned a lot of lessons on the first one, and I think when we came into the second we had a better picture of how we wanted to do things. … I think the main thing we said is we wanted less information, to let the songs breathe a bit.
I think we were just more confident, and you don’t have to add as much if you are confident in the songs and material. And that was the basis of what we went off and I think it guided us pretty well. But other than that, I mean, you’re going in hoping that you come out with something at the end that is bigger than the sum of its parts. I don’t think anybody really knows what they’re doing. And as David Bowie said, “If you knew what you were doing, it’d be boring. You’d be disappointed.”
Is there one song on the new album you’d point to as the guiding light for what this project is trying to say?
EH: Maybe “Now You Got Me,” because it’s about commitment to something, and a lot of the lyrics are about joining the band and stuff like that. And I think that paints a picture, for me, of the whole album and where we are right now.
RM: [The song] sums up just the overall residing theme of it being an album of love songs, about loving your friends, really.
You guys talk a lot about being in a band and your commitment to each other. I know you all watched The Beatles documentary Get Back, which touches on some similar themes. How did that impact how Inhaler functions?
EH: It couldn’t have come out at a better time for us to be preparing to go into a studio to make a new album. And it was also very interesting for us to watch that and watch some of the conversations that they’d be having with each other as the biggest and best band to ever exist. And we’re just watching it going, “Hey, we argue about that!”
The lead single “These Are the Days” is a big, anthemic song. How’d you land on it to introduce the new album?
JJ: It was funny, because “These Are the Days” was kind of overlooked at the time but we played it to our producers and our managers and they were like, “Hey, there’s something there. Let’s get cooking on that straight away.” Even though it was one of the later demos to arrive, it was one of the first songs we’d finished and we thought it was a good way of coming back into releasing music and saying, “Hey, here we are again. Are people still interested in us?” It just worked out in that way.
How about “If You’re Going to Break My Heart,” which is a departure for you guys? It sounds like an American folk or country song.
RM: That came to us from listening to a lot of Bob Dylan and The Band and Bruce Springsteen, and us falling in love with America, really, and touring it and visiting places like Nashville and sort of familiarizing ourselves a bit more with country music and the storytelling that goes behind that. In music, country artists are the best storytellers. I think that’s what we were aiming for. I think that song actually came fairly naturally to us in the studio, because it’s not super rigid-sounding. It’s a lot more loose and it sounds like a live band, which is, again, what we wanted to achieve with this record.
What does it mean to you to be a rock band in 2023 that’s still finding an audience in real life, especially as so many artists your age are living on TikTok?
EH: It’s everything to us. When we were kids, the most uncool thing you could do was pick up a guitar and join a band. And everyone was like, “Oh, that’s cute.” I think we were just doing it for ourselves, really, because that’s how we found each other — we just wanted to listen to Stone Roses and Joy Division, and it drew us close.
And we saw Arctic Monkeys came out with AM in 2013 and that was very guitar-driven, and “Do I Wanna Know?,” it was a huge single, and I think that gave us a little bit of hope. And I also think that maybe people are just sick of hearing stuff that doesn’t feel authentic. And I think it doesn’t get much more authentic than hearing the clang of a guitar, and that’s a very visceral, physical sound. Maybe that’s why people like listening to bands like us, I guess. But we’re still like, a “pop and roll.” We’re not like idols. We’re still very kind of freaked out that this has even happened.
Two decades after breaking through on a national level, T.I. is still writing his legacy.
While Tip usually shies away from watching scary movies himself, the hip-hop polymath expanded his filmography by starring in the psychological horror movie Fear, which hit theaters in January. In addition to playing Lou in the Deon Taylor-directed independent flick — joining a cast that included Power’s Joseph Sikora, Terrence J, Tyler Abron, King Bach and Rudy Modine — T.I. also served as a producer and investor in the movie, which was filmed in the midst of the pandemic.
And he and DaBaby linked up in Charlotte in early January for a soundtrack collaboration, also titled “Fear.” DaBaby tells Billboard, “My guy Deon Taylor called me and I got to see the trailer for the film and I got to curate the song directly off that. [Deon’s] quickly become one of my mentors in the last couple of months. Ever since I ran into him at Draymond Green’s wedding, he asked me if I was interested in being on the big screen since he saw some of my music videos. I told him, ‘Absolutely.’”
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Will T.I. follow up that project with a Super Bowl cameo? The rapper has been rumored to make a guest appearance at Rihanna’s Super Bowl LVII halftime show to perform their Hot 100-topping 2008 duet “Live Your Life.” T.I. caught up with Billboard to discuss the Super Bowl possibility, his ranking on Billboard and Vibe‘s greatest rappers list, Drake interpolating “24’s” on Her Loss, and more.
How was working with DaBaby on “Fear” for the Fear soundtrack?
T.I.: It was dope. Me and bro had a mutual respect for a long time. I always spoke about working together and working on film. He’s been picking my brain about it. With his videos, you can tell he’s got chops and he’s ready to evolve into another form of storytelling. I’m eager to assist the next generation however I can.
DaBaby and Deon Taylor attend “Fear” World Premiere at Directors Guild Of America on January 21, 2023 in Los Angeles, California.
Arnold Turner/GI for Hidden Empire Film Group
How did you feel about showing up on our greatest rappers list at No. 32?
There’s so many phenomenal talents, prolific artists and iconic figures that have passed through this culture. I ain’t got no time to hold no emotions about it. I’m just thankful to be here, thankful to be part of the collective that gets to do what we love for a living and inspire people on a daily basis. I’m just happy to be around the elite. The people I used to wake up not wanting to go to school and listen to. I’m on a list with them.
Now I became the person that little truancies used to get up and not want to go to school. It’s an honor and a privilege and a pleasure to be on that list. I think it’s some people that I came before I think that I should’ve went behind. What’s the process? So people just saying let’s piss people off? If you wanna piss people off and get instant engagement, make a list about anything.
What did you think about Drake interpolating your song “24’s” for “Rich Flex” on Her Loss?
I think it’s dope. I think it’s incredible, on the 20th anniversary of Trap Muzik this year, we’re still showing the relevance and the impact of the music from having the icons of today just still find value in it and I think it’s dope that he did it. I’m happy to be a part of it in any way possible.
Are we going to see you at the Super Bowl performing “Live Your Life” with Rihanna?
Zip it. Ay man, I will not confirm or deny any potential appearance. It’s an awesome opportunity. It was awesome to have the opportunity to work with such an iconic figure and such a prolific individual and such a beautiful spirit altogether. We’ll see what happens.
You’ve been a mentor to a lot of artists, and recently spoke about how 21 Savage thanks you every time he sees you for not giving him that first $1 million.
It’s amazing to be in a position where you enter into a whole new generation and be this institution of culture and see the new leaders of the generation pass through your studio and find their sound and start building, meeting each other, and learning the business. I teach the way I was taught, and I was taught you gon’ sacrifice something to gain something. Part of that sacrifice early on is that up-front advance money. Then you get some equity on the back end. That’s the model I’ve been preaching for a long time.
Young Thug was another one of those artists you mentored. He’s in an unfortunate situation right now.
I still have the utmost faith he’s going to come out better than ever. God has the last say, regardless of what I think. He’s going to be a better person and in a better position.
“What You Know” celebrated an anniversary last weekend. What do you remember most about making that record?
I remember how fast I recorded it — it was extremely fast. As soon as [producer] DJ Toomp came in and played some records, as soon as I heard that beat, I knew that was it. I just went in there and did it. Everybody knew this was the first single. That was probably one of the most obvious first listens I’ve ever experienced.
What was your response to RZA’s comments hating on the South taking over rap in 2007 at the time?
I had heard that. There’s gonna be some knee-jerk reactions when it comes to change. Things are being presented a little differently than you’re used to receiving, I can understand how it may take some getting used to. Personally, he never exhibited that kind of energy toward me, and I think that Southern lyrics as a whole are made in response to people in the South and the dialect is much different than the North. I can understand if you from up North, how you might feel a little left out.
Kill the King is your final album? The last one has to be A1.
It’s definitely a feeling of that. Perfection is necessary. I kind of have to put an exclamation point on this career that is taken me to heights that I never imagined and led me places that really surprised me. I never thought I’d be in some of the great positions that I found myself in. This would be the exclamation point, and I have to do it.
When TOMORROW X TOGETHER unveiled the first visuals for their Billboard 200 No. 1–contending album The Name Chapter: Temptation, the K-pop boy band quickly set the Internet ablaze with the dreamy, skin-baring set of photos and videos. Even if the group’s millions of fans and followers aren’t similarly preparing for fantastical photo shoots and TV performances on the regular, the quintet is honest about the relatable mindset to push towards their goals and showcase why TXT is increasingly earning its title as “K-pop’s voice of Gen Z.”
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When discussing The Name Chapter: Temptation, TOMORROW X TOGETHER’s Soobin, Yeonjun, Beomgyu, Taehyun and HueningKai don’t differentiate when speaking about the ways diet, idleness and exercise affect their lives as both musicians and everyday people. At just 20 years old, youngest member HueningKai describing resisting certain meals as “a war against food” may be an essential part of his K-pop experience but also a battle that everyone fights from time to time. Taehyun mentioning “the temptation of laziness” may be more top of mind for a schedule-packed starlet, but who hasn’t had a morning of hitting the snooze button an extraordinary amount of times?
TOMORROW X TOGETHER don’t preach to rise above vices, nor do they try to appear as if they don’t fall to temptations themselves, but instead bring these shared experiences to life through more outstanding creative contributions (like “Happy Fools” with Coi Leray) and the most impressive choreography of their careers (watch “Devil by the Window” and new single “Sugar Rush Ride”). The guys emphasize that not only are their lived experiences inside The Name Chapter: Temptation, but the front-to-back listening experience previews the next page in their story, which is sure to continue this deeper look into these five engaging, empathetic superstars.
Read on for Soobin, Yeonjun, Beomgyu, Taehyun and HueningKai’s reflections on their latest EP, new goals, favorite songs and more.
Congratulations on the new music, TOMORROW X TOGETHER! What are you most looking forward to starting this new chapter?
TAEHYUN: What I look forward to the most is the reaction of our fans when the music first releases. When we are preparing for the album release right now and that’s the time when we can most feel that “Oh, we are finally releasing the album” feeling.
Your album titles The Dream Chapter and Chaos Chapter give obvious hints about where the music will go, but The Name Chapter is a little more open-ended. Can you explain it?
TAEHYUN: We always talk about growth. We’ve talked about friendship for The Dream Chapter, and some love being broken in our Chaos Chapter. And, finally, we arrived at The Name Chapter and you know you have to grow up but sometimes you don’t want to yet. That’s what this EP is about: You’re tempted to stay in “Neverland” because it’s sweet and you’re young and free. But at the end of this album, you say “Farewell, Neverland” because you know you have to go, so you have to go.
TOMORROW X TOGETHER always put your stories into your albums. How do you relate and fit with what you just described?
TAEHYUN: The overarching theme of this album is “temptation.” And I think that we come across many temptations from different places as we grow. The track that I’ve felt like it’s really our story is the third track “Happy Fools.” We all contributed in making this track and it talks about a story of how we fall into the temptation of laziness. YEONJUN did a beautiful job top lining the song, and all five of us contributed to the lyrics writing so it truly became our song.
What does the new single “Sugar Rush Ride” represent in your story?
HUENINGKAI: I think this song really incorporates our overarching theme of this album, which is temptation, really well. So it talks about a temptation of a sugar rush, which is irresistible and very, very sweet. So, I think it represents our refreshing, dreamlike and even sexy charms.
SOOBIN: It’s not only about an experience that we have, but I think it’s an experience that everyone has. So, I think everyone can resonate with the song too.
“Sugar Rush Ride” has the lyric, “The devil said, ‘Gimme, gimme more’” and you have the “Devil by the Window” song. With the album’s theme, what temptations do you battle in your lives?
HUENINGKAI: I think the temptation that you come across in everyday life is diet. So, when you go on a diet, you can’t really resist the temptation of food. It’s basically a war against food. So, I think that’s the strongest and scariest temptation we can ever come across.
YEONJUN: I agree.
You guys always look great and the Internet went wild with your concept photos. Did you do anything specific to prepare for those, either mentally or physically?
YEONJUN: Yeah, I worked out almost every day.
Tell us more about the visuals for this album: You have “Daydream,” “Nightmare,” “Farewell,” and “Lullaby” concept photos.
TAEHYUN: I can basically explain our concept photo that it has different concepts and, I think, they’re basically in a chronological order. In “Daydream,” we depict how we fall into the temptation and how happy and pleased we are falling into the temptation. For “Nightmare,” we express how we recognize that we have fallen into the temptation and try to fight off the temptation. In “Farewell,” we finally overcome the temptation and take one step further away from the temptation.
You always emphasize wanting to grow with every album release. In what ways do you feel like you grew with this new album?
HUENINGKAI: Every time we release a new album, we give a try to new and various genres. And of course, for this album as well, we gave a try to many new genres. So it was our first time trying Afropop genre, which is a pretty difficult genre but I think everyone did a very good job in recording “Tinnitus (Wanna Be a Rock)” and we wrapped that up pretty nicely. And other than the songs, I think the concept photo–wise, it was our first time trying that concept of a “dreamlike” concept, but every member did a good job pulling off that concept.
What’s everyone’s favorite track on the album?
TAEHYUN: That’s my favorite today, “Tinnitus (Wanna Be a Rock).”
HUENINGKAI: I would choose “Farewell, Neverland,” the last track.
YEONJUN: I’ll choose “Happy Fools.”
SOOBIN: I’m the same with HUENINGKAI, the last track, “Farewell, Neverland.”
BEOMGYU: I will choose “Happy Fools” too.
TOMORROW X TOGETHER has hit No. 4 on the Billboard 200. I have a really good feeling about this album, but do you have any new goals, hopes or dreams this time?
HUENINGKAI: Of course, to perform at the bigger stages and perform at the AMAs.
YEONJUN: Attending [American Music Awards] was a really good experience, but next time we want to perform.
TAEHYUN: We also want to build and strengthen our color. We want people to listen to our music and think, “Hey, that’s TXT and that was awesome.”
What else do you want to emphasize to fans with this release?
TAEHYUN: Fans want spoilers and hints every time we release a new album. And I want to tell our fans that if you listen to the tracks from Number One to Number Five, in order, then you can get a hint for our next album.
THE ALBUM
Heavy Heavy, out Friday (Feb. 3) on Ninja Tune
THE ORIGIN
Alloysious Massaquoi, Kayus Bankole and Graham ‘G’ Hastings formed Young Fathers in a nightclub in Scotland, and after a series of false starts, including a stint as a “psychedelic boy band,” they honed in their sound on Tape One and Tape Two, a pair of mixtapes recorded with producer Tim London that established them as the kind of band to rap over the “Be My Baby” beat. After winning the Scottish Album of the Year award with Tape Two, they released their debut album, DEAD, in 2014. That year, the album beat out projects from critically beloved acts like FKA Twigs and Damon Albarn to win the Mercury Prize.
From there, the band just kept working, putting out the lower-fi but even more ambitious pop record White Men Are Black Men Too in 2015. After the release of 2018’s relatively streamlined Cocoa Sugar, the pandemic forced a break from touring and recording, but the downtime proved invigorating for the band.
THE SOUND
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Ask Young Fathers what they sound like, and they’re happy to call what they make pop music. There are soaring hooks and efficient song structures. It feels organic while listening, but try describing their sound and it gets a lot more complicated: it’s too intricate to be lo-fi, too raw to be hi-fi, too poppy to be “alternative hip-hop,” too harsh for easy listening. The most frequent comparison is TV on the Radio, but that doesn’t quite work, because Young Fathers aren’t really a rock band, either.
Whatever their sound is, it’s dense – taking elements from various musical genres and cultures, less as a manner of pastiche than what the band members are thinking and feeling at that particular time. While Heavy Heavy is some of their most purely joyful work to date, Hastings doesn’t view that as a deliberate decision.
“We’re not trying to make concept albums,” he explains. “We’re not trying to make anything other than what’s based on the spontaneity that happens when we’re together.”
THE RECORD
Heavy Heavy was named for that aforementioned density: as with previous records, it’s still fairly minimal, but this time what’s there is blown out. The project finds the trio, this time working without their mentor Tim London, honing even further on their sound, which is a mood of simultaneous celebration and paranoia.
On “Drum,” lyrics like “Feel the beat of the drum and go numb/have fun,” co-exist with the lines “They’re gonna get you either way/whether you cry about today or die another day.” Even the sequencing of the album feels like you’re with the band in the studio as they dart between ideas: “Tell Somebody” gradually builds into a sense of euphoric, heavily saturated desperation, right before the unexpected jazz piano on “Geronimo” provides a serene comedown. Meanwhile, there’s a gospel rave-up on “Sink or Swim,” a 6/8 stomp on “I Saw” and the delightfully bizarre, bouzouki-led “Ululation,” where Bankole’s sister, Tapiwa Mambo, takes the lead and vents in Shona.
The last song, “Be Your Lady,” is everything that makes Young Fathers unique in one three-minute blast, alternating between a soulful piano ballad and erratic drum breaks (created by a literal drum machine accident while recording), as the band members take turns shouting, “Can I take 10 pounds worth of loving out of the bank, please?” in different accents. It’s almost zany in its audaciousness, but winds up a loving tribute to Bankole’s different identities as a Black Scottish man. “I switch back and forth in different accents [in conversation] because ] I’ve been able to spend time in Nigeria and the United States. So it’s all a mishmash of that and being born in Scotland.”
THE FUTURE
Bankole admits that “Be Your Lady” is the most challenging new song to pull off in rehearsals: “The drum machine is not really syncopated or in time, and you can’t really catch it!” The trio is planning on bringing their intense live show across Europe in April, including the Roundhouse in London. There are also several songs from the sessions that didn’t make the record – not due to their quality, but because they didn’t fit in the sequencing – so there might even be more music in the pipeline.
THEIR FAVORITE PIECE OF GEAR
Hastings: “EMS Vocoder 2000 are transcendent keyboards.” When asked about real-life synthesizers versus software synths, he continues: “I have them, but usually the whole thing has already been made by things that you can touch. The whole premise is anybody can hit anything in the studio and for soft synths it’s not really the same because it’s more fiddly.”
THE ARTIST THAT THEY THINK NEEDS MORE ATTENTION
Hastings: “I’ve heard the new music that Law Holt has done that’s not out yet, and it’s one of the most radical-sounding things I’ve heard ever. Callum Easter is also a great musician and has great pop albums that have this dark side to it, but they’re still these beautiful pop songs.”
THE THING THAT THEY THINK NEEDS TO CHANGE IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY
Hastings: “There should be more creatives. People who are not artists should wake up every morning, look in the f–king mirror, and say ‘I am not an artist’ a hundred times.”
Bankole: “If you work with creative people, it doesn’t automatically make you a creative [person].”
Hastings: “And if you’re not an artist, don’t try to be the artist, and f–king listen to them.”
THE PIECE OF ADVICE THEY BELIEVE EVERY NEW INDIE ARTIST NEEDS TO HEAR:
Hastings: “Being able to describe yourself. ‘Cause the industry is not about to understand you in any f–king way. You have to be able to be precise and even when you are that precise, it still won’t f–king connect. But at least it can convey something.”
Bankole: “I think it’s important to be match-ready, but there is a real thing of over-rehearsing, to the point where you are blocking yourself from being spontaneous, and having room to wiggle about within the moments in the different environment every time.”
A key to the success of Måneskin is their musical eclecticism. They can cover a ‘60s tune like the Four Seasons’ “Beggin’” or a 2000s hit like The Killers’ “Somebody Told Me,” and bring each into their own style — while at other times, channeling the White Stripes or Red Hot Chili Peppers. And while the Italian quartet possesses standard rock band qualities that have endeared them to old-school audiences and radio programmers, they also flaunt their individual personalities, gender fluidity and knack for showmanship in a way that encourages young listeners and TikTok users to hop aboard the bandwagon, too.
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Måneskin’s exuberant cover of “Beggin’” blew up around the world in 2021, four years after the band first performed the cover. Since then, original tunes like “Supermodel” and “Mammamia” have earned millions of streams, the band opened for The Rolling Stones before headlining in the U.S. last fall, and in a few weeks they might take home the best new artist Grammy. Yet Rush!, their third album out this Friday (Jan. 20), carries the weight of expectation as their first full-length since stepping foot on the global stage.
The contributions of Max Martin on multiple tracks suggests a major pop bid, but Rush! spans the punk energy of “Kool Kids,” the balladry of “The Loneliest” and the groove-ready rock of “Gossip,” which features a guitar solo from Tom Morello. The album revels in the diversity of its four perspectives. As bassist Victoria De Angelis notes, “We don’t have actually similar tastes at all. We all have very different tastes and music backgrounds, so we influence each other in the writing process.”
While color-coordinated in chic brown and tan outfits, the four members of Måneskin – De Angelis, singer Damiano David, guitarist Thomas Raggi and drummer Ethan Torchio – sat down with Billboard for a Zoom discussion on their music, ethos and chemistry. (Note: this interview has been condensed and edited for clarity.)
While you’ve had a fairly even split between English and Italian lyrics on your past releases, the majority of Rush! is in English, with only three songs being sung in Italian. Is this a strategy to get you to a larger audience?
Damiano: It’s not a strategy. Basically, when we started being a band and writing songs, we started writing in English, because 90% of our influences are not strictly English, but English-sounding. We had to learn how to write music in Italian because we never thought about it. But then we got big in Italy, and we had to start doing it – and also because it’s our language and we want to do it. But now we finally had the chance to make almost the whole album in English, because it’s like going back to our beginning. It’s what we are most used to doing.
Victoria: We really never forced it. It’s always been quite natural and in the moment. We do what we feel. I think also because we wrote most of the record while we were in the U.S., so we were getting inspired and seeing a lot of shows there, meeting artists and stuff.
“Beggin’” has over a billion views on YouTube now. How has its success influenced what you’ve been trying to do since then? Have you felt pressure to follow that up?
Damiano: No, I think that for us we managed to take only the best part out of it, because that song drove behind all the other songs and all the catalog. Fortunately, it was not just that song. It [the success] happened while we were thinking about this new record, so we just thought that drive could only make us our music more open and reach more people. It just gave us more hype to write the album, because we knew that this time, it was going to be different.
On your first album, Damiano wrote nearly all of the songs. The second album was a group effort. And then on Rush! you brought in outside songwriters and producers, like Sly and Rami Yacoub. What was that process like this time?
Damiano: We just wanted to shuffle the cards this time. We have played together for more than eight years. We just got to a point where we thought that we were able to put the band’s signature on every song. But we were also able to embrace not just one direction, but keep it more random, and follow each one’s different tastes and let each one of us lead in different songs. So writing the songs was easier. But then it was harder to pick [a track list], because with this method we wrote many, many more songs. We wrote like 60 songs, so it was very hard to pick these 17.
Ethan: If it were limitless, we would have done a record with 50 tracks.
You worked with Max Martin on four of these tracks. What was that experience like?
Victoria: This thing he’s known for, pop, is what drew us to him, because we want to try something different and to be stimulated in a different way. We’re used to doing music in our vision, and we know how it is to get in the studio and jam, the four of us. We still do it and we’ve done it on a bunch of songs on the record, but we also wanted to try something new.
We were very curious about this match because we love doing covers – “Beggin’” is a pop song. We play them and make them in a completely new flavor and version. So that was the match that we wanted to try with him, to get a bit of his pop sensibility and advice, but then take it and turn into who we are and make it more dirty and sound like us. I think he really understood what we wanted.
The first time we met him was at our show, where it really shines through what kind of band and energy we have and like. It was very easy in the studio, because he got it, and respected our identity and who we are. It was just like a school – understanding a different way of doing stuff. He has years of experience, so he really gave us some good advice.
Ethan: He’s so caring. … Something I really learned from him are the rules in the music writing process. You can follow them, you can not follow them. It’s a choice. But I learned this for him.
What was the most unusual process this time around?
Victoria: Basically, we would always just go in the studio and jam. I think we learned what was very useful was just to record all the jamming. Tom Morello literally jams for five hours, records everything, and then he listens back to five hours of recording and finds all the small, cool parts he has played. Then he picks the best ones and makes the song out of it. That was a really cool way of doing it.
Ethan: You need patience.
Thomas: Exactly. Because if you stay in that moment, really natural, you can take the best part with the best energy.
Your younger fans love how you embrace gender fluidity, at a time where, in both Italy and America, LGBTQ+ rights and protections are still an issue.
Damiano: Yeah, sure. I think [Italy] is still a few years later than USA because, like everything we import in Italy, it takes a few years to start. But things are starting to change. People are starting to build a situation where it’s possible to think about changing things. And there’s always more and more people, especially of our age or slightly older, 20, 30, that are creating communities and groups and are speaking up about things that have not spoken up for too many years. I think we’re in a good place right now.
In 2021, you did a TV performance in Poland, a country that is more religiously conservative. How did the Polish TV censors respond to the kiss between Damiano and Thomas at the end of that performance?
Damiano: You could see all the people of the same age of us were super hyped, and all the parents were like, “Oh, s—t, what’s going on? Do I like it? Should I like it? Should I not like it?” Half and half, as always.
Victoria: I think that moment has a really big meaning for our audience there, from all the people from the community, because there’s really a lack of representation and they face a lot of issues. Even now in Italy, as you said in America, it’s still a s—t situation, where people struggle for their rights and everything. So it’s never to be taken for granted anywhere, but especially there everyone was literally telling us, “It’s so homophobic here, you can’t even walk with your girlfriend or boyfriend or wear what you want.” That’s why we wanted to make a statement about it. I think it meant a lot for fans, so that was the most important thing.
What’s the most personal song on the new album for you?
Thomas: “Gossip,” because I wrote the main riff one day when we went in the studio in L.A., and I remember that we took that main riff on the Dropbox of the old songs. We said, “Okay, this is a really cool riff and good riff,” but after another session, I remember that we just took the main riff that became “Gossip” with Morello and the other stuff. I was very happy at the time.
Victoria: I’d say “Kool Kids,” because it was one of the first songs we wrote, and it was one of the first riffs I came up with, so I’m very proud of that riff. I love that we had the courage to make such a powerful, strong, punk song in a mainstream record nowadays.
Ethan: Victoria stole the one that I want to say. So I’m gonna say another one, “Read Your Diary,” because I love the harmonic progression that Thomas has done. I also like the drums a lot. How they sound in the song is very cool.
Damiano: “Timezone.” I think it’s not the easiest song, but the easiest to read. There’s no metaphors, it’s very clear what I’m saying. I’m not trying to hide behind double meanings. It’s just a circle of thoughts, without any censorship.
Tainy’s musical contributions to modern-day Latin pop are unparalleled. As a mastermind behind many a reggaetón-pop hit — including producing nine of the 23 tracks found on Bad Bunny’s genre-hopping, record-shattering Un Verano Sin Ti blockbuster — it’s no doubt that he has helped revamp the Latin pop playbook. The Puerto Rican producer is now preparing to drop his solo debut LP, the star-studded DATA, in early 2023.
To date, the 2022 Latin Grammy winner for producer of the year has unveiled the wildly successful “Lo Siento BB:/,” featuring Bunny and Mexican singer-songwriter Julieta Venegas, as well as “Sci-Fi,” co-starring Rauw Alejandro.
“[DATA] is a representation of who I am as a person, and as a fan of music,” Tainy tells Billboard Español. “To be able to have my own album is so special. I’m putting my everything into this, all the knowledge I’ve acquired since I started working with the people I admire.” Some of those famous folks also include established hitmakers like J Balvin, Wisin & Yandel, and Arcángel, but also brilliant upstarts like Young Miko, Ankhal, and Kris Floyd.
For nearly two decades, Tainy (real name: Marcos Efraín Masís Fernández) has been a constant force in the música urbana soundscape. He began churning out beats for reggaetón pioneers like Luny Tunes just before Daddy Yankee’s “Gasolina” (2004) took the world by storm, when he was merely 14 years old. His creative wanderlust led him to co-produce for now-icons like Yankee, Don Omar and Wisin & Yandel.
“Shout out to Tainy, the G.O.A.T., the legend … He’s somebody who I’ve looked up to since I was a teenager and my entire career,” said Billboard‘s 2022 top-charting beatmaker MAG, and the lead co-producer of Un Verano Sin Ti.
While keeping his momentum strong in the mid-’10s, Tainy eventually began talking to a then-upcoming rapper by the name of Benito Antonio Martínez Ocasio — the world’s hottest superstar of today, better known as Bad Bunny — and together they would go on to make pop history. Fun fact: Tainy co-produced Bunny’s first No. 1 song on Billboard’s Hot 100, “I Like It,” alongside Balvin and Cardi B.
With a keen eye for identifying rare music gems and emerging talent, Tainy also teamed up with music exec Lex Borrero to co-create NEON16 in 2019, a “multifaceted talent incubator,” as the two describe it. “He has a very broad vision of music,” Julieta Venegas told Billboard in November. “He identifies these pairings and links his teams with artists that come from the pop, folk, and Mexican music world.”
As 2022 comes to an end, the super-producer connected with Billboard Español to reflect on his wildly successful year in music — and share exciting details about his highly-anticipated debut album.
You co-produced the greatest album of 2022, Bad Bunny’s Un Verano Sin Ti. What goes through your mind when you reflect on its extraordinary success?
It’s cool, but it’s not easy to digest when everything is happening. I’m now starting to reflect back and see the gravity of it. These are things that we never felt could be possible for us, coming from Puerto Rico and being Latin. We always felt like there was a higher level [imposed by the] Anglo market, and seeing that that doesn’t exist anymore … a lot of that has to do with Benito. It’s special to see those barriers broken. Dreaming big ends up becoming true.
This is now the new normal. Now everybody is on the same playing field. Great music is just great music in any language, in any part of the world. For [the album] to be able to connect with so many people, [it’s] special to be a part of that.
Walk us through the making of one of the hits you produced on the album, like “Ojitos Lindos.”
The whole idea [for the song] started with my younger brother Masis, who’s a producer too. He brought us an instrumental, but it was in a different style. When Benito heard it, he just heard the trumpets — which you now hear in the beginning of the track. He felt something special from it, but the sounds that came after the original instrumental was not what he had in mind. That’s where I come in. Since we have studio chemistry, I knew what he was looking for, and having this melody that my brother brought was the perfect base.
[Bunny] said it reminded him of the vibe from a song I remixed for Bomba Estéreo, “To My Love,” and he always wanted to work with Bomba. He told me, “Yo, why don’t we send this to them? Maybe they’ll like it.” His only note was, “Quiero hacer una canción bonita.” I already knew Li’s vocals would sound amazing on it. So I sent it over, and asked if she vibed with it. They responded right away that they loved it, and began working on it. Li brought exactly what he envisioned.
From there, he took it to his own world and gave it the right lyrics and vibe. The album’s aesthetic started to come into place, bringing in more beach soundscapes and ambience. That’s where I got the picture of what he was aiming for for the entirety of the project. It was really special to see two people in different places of the world not being in the same studio, but having the same mindset creatively.
Julieta Venegas mentioned in our interview that you scouted her for “Lo Siento BB:/” She praised your knowledge in the Latin indie and alternative realm. How do you discover acts outside of your usual genre?
I’ve always been a student of music. I always try to learn and branch out into different genres to see what I can learn from that and bring into my space. To be a producer, people don’t really get to see much of who I am. What do I listen to? What’s my style? What did I grow up liking? I think nowadays it’s a little bit easier to get to know the producers in their lives. Maybe people from afar think that all I listen to is reggaetón because that’s what I do. But I really listen to a lot of different types of music. Indie, rock and alternative music are styles I get [inspiration] from.
“Lento” by Julieta Venegas is one of my favorite songs of all time. I always wanted to work with her, but I didn’t think it was a possibility, seeing that our genres are so different from one another. Maybe she didn’t like the music we were doing, so that was a concern. When I started working on my personal project, I wanted it to be a reflection of who I am and what I love. I knew this song was going to be perfect for Julieta’s voice. And I wasn’t going to lose anything by reaching out. If she says she hates it, she hates it. But she loved it, and was so open to being a part of it.
This is one of the most special things that I’ve been able to do in my career. It’s something I’ve always wanted to do but didn’t think was possible — combining two of my favorite artists on the same track, and then they sound perfect together.
This year, Bad Bunny’s “Callaíta,” which you produced, surpassed one billion streams on Spotify. That’s quite an achievement…
It’s difficult to explain how it happened. I’ve always been grateful to be in the position that I am. I never thought I would get to this point at all. As I mentioned, we always had dreams about things we wanted to do, but they had a limit. Because we didn’t think it was possible for people like me — where I come from, who I am, our position in the world — and to see that I’ve been able to exceed that by a billion from what I initially thought could be possible, it just makes you feel like, this is all blessings. [I’m] just here to have a responsibility of inspiring more people that could do twice as much as what [I’ve] done. That’s the most special part for me.
Seeing that “Callaita” became what it became is insane. It’s humbling that people still connect with the song after so many years [since 2019]. You get a sense of those classic songs that you grew up listening to and still hear today, and can’t comprehend how they still connect with people after so many years. I’m happy that we were able to create a song that has stood the test of time.
So you’re dropping your debut album in early 2023!
I’ve been 100% focused on my project, and “Lo Siento BB:/” is the first single. We will be releasing the final product at the top of the year. I’m so excited for it. I’ve been dreaming of doing this album before I even got into music, because these types of projects are what inspired me to get into music.
As you might imagine, I’m working with most of the people that I’ve already worked with for a long time, and who I have a great relationship with: Benito, Jhayco, Rauw, Feid, Balvin, Wisin & Yandel, Arcángel…They have been a huge part of my career, so I wanted them to be a part of this, because they were a part of my journey. At the same time, I wanted to combine two worlds and merge this with the up-and-coming artists that I’m a fan of: Young Miko, Ankhal, Kris Floyd … all these guys, and how I brought in Julieta Venegas. [The album] shows more of who I am, and who my musical influences are.
It’s a representation of who I am as a person, and as a fan of music. To be able to have my own album is so special. I’m putting my everything into this, all the knowledge I’ve acquired since I started working with the people I admire. I can’t wait for you to listen to it, for everybody to vibe with it and get to know me a little bit more.
Over the course of Ab-Soul’s sprawling 12-year career, the California rapper has examined numerous theologies in his quest for what he calls “the truth, if there is such.” The “Black Lipped Pastor,” as his devout followers call him, has long served as a beacon of hope for those unfulfilled with mainstream America, and it all started with his sophomore album, 2012’s Control System.
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With its intriguing mix of bravado and philosophical parables, the album has remained so beloved among alternative rap fans that at this point it’s practically scripture for Soul’s supporters. Control System took on an identity of its own; so did Ab-Soul, who leaned further into the murky waters of conspiracy with his subsequent releases, 2014’s These Days… and 2016’s Do What Thou Wilt. The latter being so bogged down in far-flung teachings that it was hard to pinpoint where one thought ended and another began.
Then, Soulo seemed to vanish. One year off turned into six, as he disappeared down what he called a conspiracy theory “rabbit hole” that ultimately separated him from his family and friends. The immense popularity of Control System was partially to blame.
“I’ve been trying to beat Control System, and I think that’s a big part of the reason why the [new] album is called Herbert – it’s about getting back to self,” the rapper born Herbert Anthony Stevens IV tells Billboard as he chews on a Starburst inside his New York hotel room. “I was riding with one of the big homies once and he said, ‘Man you’re always playing this character like you’re Batman or something. You’re from the hood bro. Why can’t you just talk about some of that sh-t?’”
Herbert, which released on Friday (Dec. 16), is by far the most personal project Soul has ever made. Throughout the album’s 18 tracks, Soul ruminates on his family, a past suicide attempt, as well as the state of rap and his place in it. As a rapper known for having answers, he spends the majority of Herbert asking a lot of questions – on “Moonstruck,” he plainly raps, “I don’t know what to think.”
As his search for a definitive truth morphed into an addiction, Soul says that he had to come to a place of acceptance surrounding the unknown. To do this, he offered himself up as more of “an instrument” for others. DJ Premier, Sounwave, James Blake, DJ Dahi, Hit-Boy and Boi-1da all flooded him with beats, and he asked his close friends and family for help in constructing the record. He allowed the people he loved to be the foundation for what Herbert would ultimately become.
“I was asking my guys, ‘What do you want to hear me on?’ I was challenging myself in that regard,” Soul says. The process not only birthed some of Soul’s best music in a decade, it helped him let go of the steering wheel, and not get so caught up in the “absolute truth” idea.
“Look, I’m in God’s hands now. God is good all the time,” Soul says. “I’ m just keeping it like that. I’m keeping the faith.”
When I was listening back to Do What Thou Wilt versus Herbert, the first thing that struck me was how transparent and clear your songwriting has become. How did your approach to songwriting change with this album?
For me, it’s more difficult to be simple than it is to be complex. It was challenging to simplify, and I wanted it to be an easy listen, because my last album in particular was very dense and very dark also. I almost even confused myself with that one. That wasn’t an album that was an algorithm. So this time around I just wanted it to feel good first, and I just wanted to be an instrument versus have it be about what I’m saying.
At what point did Herbert and those ideas really start to come together?
So I took a year and a half off from my last album, and I went in saying, “I’m not gonna have a concept this time, I’m just gonna be pure, be open and just try to speak from within.” It was fuzzy at first, to be vulnerable, organic, but I tell everybody that once I made “Fallacy,” I felt like I was on the verge of something and that I had a direction.
“Moonshooter” also feels like a pivotal moment on the album, because you seem to come clean and say “I don’t know what to think.” This unease feels like uncharted territory for Ab-Soul. When did that start to creep in, and have you been able to come to a place of acceptance around it?
I honestly feel like it’s liberating. “A wise man knows he knows nothing.” But anyways, I found myself becoming a critic of the new artists coming in. So I kind of came to this place of, “I ain’t got no gavel, who am I to judge?” Plus just being older now, we got a lot of new young artists that are amazingly talented and skilled and are bringing new flavor to the table. It’s inspirational. I really love Kembe X, and Doechii, Reason, to name a few. Those are my guys.
Was there a moment in particular where you caught yourself being a critic?
There was literally a moment with Lil Uzi Vert early, early on. He said something about passing on a Preemo beat. I think Preemo wanted to work with him or something, and I felt a need to speak up. I obviously cleared the air with him, but that was a moment where I was like: “Hold on. He has his own sound. Who am I to speak up on any young man out there trying to make something of himself?”
Jackson Pollack was just throwing paint and he was f–king Jackson Pollack. Some thought that was ridiculous. Others thought it was genius. Like, who am I? Let me just focus and make sure I’m creating the best product I can create.
Interestingly enough, you ended up working with Preemo on “Gotta Rap.”
That was a dream come true. I always wanted that and he made me work for it. I had to do it about five or six times before he felt the frequency. I respect his craft and what he’s brought to the culture. It was an honor. Even before Ab-Soul was my name I wanted a Preemo beat. It was a milestone.
On that note, we have to talk about “Do Better.” What do you hope that record will do for the legacy of Ab-Soul?
That’s one of the most organic songs I’ve ever made. Sounwave brought me the record and I immediately was drawn to it. Like I said I was just taking production, and I wanted it to motivate. I want us to try to be better at all things. To be your best self, and that was me talking to myself. I was trying to motivate me to be better. It was a conversation with myself.
Another record that stuck out to me in that regard was “Be Like That.” The song feels like you’re experiencing rock bottom, but also seeing the light simultaneously.
Absolutely. “When it feels like hell, heaven’s around the corner.” That was the hardest record to make, and it’s so important because that’s probably the most simplified [I’ve been]. I was like, “I don’t want no metaphors in this. I don’t want no punchline. Not one simile, I just want to speak,” and that was so hard for me to do. I don’t believe in forcing anything either, so I had to get into the spirit of it.
You’ve been working extensively with Jhené Aiko for years now. Tell me about the creative dynamic you two share and what you feel she brings to your music.
I saw one time somebody asked her if she was a rapper who she’d be and she said Ab-Soul. Jhené was with us in the trenches, in the beginning. She was with us early. A beautiful voice, beautiful writer, beautiful spirit and we just clicked. Also, you know she’s a Pisces, and we have that Pisces thing. Our collaborations are so effortless.
What your relationship is to the “Black-Lipped Pastor” nickname at this point in your career?
I’m still the Pastor! I feel like it’s more suitable now and that it’s tailor-made for me. It was a little baggier back then, but I feel like I’ve grown into it now. At the time I got that nickname I was heavy into theology and getting into the root of things, and it came from asking questions and trying to get to the truth, if there is such.
Tell me more about how being labeled the “third eye guy” impacted you.
Like I said I’m trying to climb out of the rabbit hole man. Let’s stay here. Let’s stay in this realm. Let’s stay on the ground. I was focusing on the unknown and the conspiracy and listen: Learn all you can while you’re here. Knowledge is power, but stay on the ground. Stay here. I felt myself becoming disconnected from my close friends and family in a sense. My way of thinking started to become extra terrestrial. The big homies are just trying to party.
Do you still consider yourself the “Third Eye Guy?”
I’ll always be the third eye guy, and I still believe those things but now it’s a faith. You heard my thoughts on them. I’m not trying to shove these theories down your throat. Once I felt the disconnect between the people that mattered to me most, the people that I trust the most, when I started feeling a disconnect between that and my relationships, I realized something is obviously wrong with me.
You gotta keep your foundation, man. I’m big on family and love and those things. I just started to feel like I was isolating myself. I didn’t wanna hang out as much because I wasn’t interested in what was going on. They’re like, “Yo bro, where you at? Pop out!” And I was, you know, staying inside.
How has Herbert helped your process of climbing out from that rabbit hole?
Oh, I’m back outside, baby! Listen man, I live in the now. I’m living right now. I’m in the now heavy.
As a professor, Method Man isn’t calling attendance, he doesn’t care who shows up late, and he damn sure isn’t going through bullet points on a syllabus. Wearing glasses, a baby blue Versace t-shirt and a navy baseball cap with the rim to the back, Meth is sitting down, carefully but effortlessly rolling a blunt as he prepares to address the student body.
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No, this isn’t some scene from How High. This is real life, and Method Man is the instructor tonight on a class held via Zoom called “Rhymecology.”
“The anxiety in the studio bruh, because Doc is incredible,” Meth says, giving props to his How High co-star and longtime friend Redman, when questioned by a student about collaborating. “I give credit where credit is due. That dude, he is music… The reason I said ‘anxiety’ is because you want to be at your best…. This n—a is going in the booth spitting straight ether every f—in’ day. And you gotta keep up, son. Even outside the studio, onstage. He helped my creative process so much. Big bruh molded me into the MC I am today.”
Throughout the night, Meth shares revelations, advice, tutelage and insights on everything from the genius of rap battle MCs (“The most brilliant rappers in the world — these muthaf—-s is driving the culture right now”), to being “miserable” for eight straight years making music, to constructing hooks, to his goal for his legendary hip-hop family, Wu-Tang Clan. And that is the Wu making it into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
“I want that for my crew,” Meth declares. “We have a very strong stake in that.”
Rhymecology, dedicated to the mental health aspect in hip-hop, is just one of the courses laid out as part of the curriculum at the virtual school, Pendulum Ink Academy. At Pen Ink, one of the prime goals is “nurturing creativity through lyricism.”
Pendulum was conceived, developed and co-cultivated by Bronx wordsmith Mickey Factz, who ascended in rap during the rise of the blog era in the mid 2000s. He quickly became adept at multimedia marketing skills (Mickey’s marketing firm and indie label GFC New York had Nipsey Hussle on their roster of clients looking for help with branding), and showcased his wordplay through his freestyles, mixtapes and song collaborations, which helped him landed on the cover of XXL’s coveted Freshman Issue in 2009.
Along with his cover stars Wale, Kid Cudi, and Curren$y, Mickey was tapped to be a leader of the new school. Fast forward to 2019: Mickey was 10 years removed from being up next, and contemplating what was going to be next in his life.
“It was an epiphany moment,” Factz, sitting in his Atlanta high rise office, recalls. After a decade in the game, he felt he has reached his ceiling. “I was like, ‘I kind of feel like this a dead-end job for me right now. I’m working album to album. This doesn’t make sense to me. What am I gonna do when it’s time to retire?’ I started thinking about retirement a lot. So I was like, ‘You know what? I need to retire into teaching.’”
Mickey began researching how he could actually teach without a degree, and came to the conclusion that, sans the credentials, it was almost impossible. The rapper (born Mark Williams) had attended NYU and was a paralegal at a law firm before dropping out of school and quitting his job to focus solely on his rap career in 2007. Even if he had graduated NYU and became a lawyer like he was tracking to do, Mickey says there weren’t too many schools willing to make hip-hop an actual course in 2019 anyway.
Then the pandemic hit, and while so many of us were sequestered at home, Mickey locked his focus on MasterClass. Hip-hop icons such as Nas and Timbaland were lecturing virtually for a fee. Factz felt he found his pathway to rap retirement.
“I DMed them, ‘Yo, I would love to work with you guys,’” Factz recalls. “They hit me back a couple hours later like, ‘Yo man, don’t call us. We’ll call you.’ That was January 2021.
“I’m from the Bronx, man,” Mickey continues with a light chuckle, before revealing his found extra motivation in the wake of MasterClass’ rejection. “I said, ‘Aight. I’m gonna make my own MasterClass.’”
On Dec. 1, 2021, Mickey lectured an online class of 10 people — he was hired for $250 to speak for an hour. Factz realized that not only could he teach students, but he knew his dream could grow. “You can’t do a MasterClass of hip-hop in one class,” he explained. “It’s impossible in terms of writing.”
Factz reached out to his friend, battle rapper Chilla Jones, for help. Jones began to contact some of his associates, and soon a five-man team was formed. Together they came up with an eight-month curriculum, and Pendulum Ink Academy was created.
Along with the core brain trust of the Academy (all of whom teach classes), Pendulum boasts certified college professors on their staff, and courses like Rap Theory, where the students learn cadence and how to rhyme on beat. Rap Theory is taught by jazz musician Comikbook Cam. Meanwhile, Chilla teaches Advanced Technique: Pendulum Ink has 35 rap techniques copyrighted, and put names to skills that MCs have been displaying their entire careers.
“Some of these courses were rejected at universities,” Factz says. “Criminology in Hip-Hop was rejected by three universities. So I said to our professor Ahmariah Jackson, ’Listen, come here. I’ll pay you. Teach it once a month.’”
Pendum Ink launched last February, and Factz recalls not knowing exactly what to expect. “February 24th, we had our first person sign up,” he says. “They paid the full tuition, $2,000. Then every day after the 24th, for about 45 days, people were paying. I was like, ‘Alright, we got something here.’ And mind you, this is the beta [stage], just six courses: Rap Theory, Advanced Rap Techniques, Rhymecology, Mickey Money Class, Battle Rap, Content Creation Class.”
Soon after, Mickey signed up some of his close friends and peers to be guest teachers for these classes. “I told them I had a school and then I walked them through it, and then I asked them if they want to teach or give a lecture,” he remembers. “They said ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘Good, because I pay.’ I find it easier for them to do this than to do a record.”
Phonte from Little Brother, Masta Ace and Cory Gunz were all among his first phone calls. Fittingly, Inspectah Deck was Pendulum’s very first guest lecturer: Wu-Tang Clan’s Enter The Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) was the first album Mickey bought with his own money as a kid. “Its essential to bring back the art form, and Pendulum Ink does that,” Deck says.
“It’s a gift to receive instruction from a living legend,” says Pendulum student, Al Billups. He signed up and participated in the recent Rhymecology class with Method Man. “The opportunity to peel back the layers of a composition with the actual creator is a treat for any fan of the culture. Participating in a Pendulum Ink session exposed me to an incredible instructional ecosystem that is designed to help MC’s gain a better understanding around the nuances of lyricism.”
Pendulum Ink’s graduation is set for February 26, 2023; Bun B is confirmed as commencement speaker. Veteran hip-hop journalist Sway has also been tapped to participate in the ceremony along with Big K.R.I.T., Stalley and Skyzoo.
Pendulum Ink also just started a nonprofit organization called Pen Pals, where kids from 7 to 17 can learn how to MC. Pen Pals will also serve as space for known MCs to learn how to teach. Factz says his hope is that some of those MCs could be professors at universities one day.
“I want them to have a crash course in our lexicon,” he notes. “You can do it your own way, but structure is very important.”
One of Pen Ink’s students has been hired at Fredrick Pilot Middle School in Boston, and is teaching some of the Academy’s programs to kids ranging from 11 to 14 years old. Meanwhile, Factz himself has accepted an offer to teach at the University of Hawaii, and will teach one month at a time for the whole of March, July and November.
Pendulum Ink has also delved into the actual ink game with their very own textbook coming next year, featuring a foreword written by Big Daddy Kane. The roster of new professors coming to teach in year two of the academy is shaping up to be impressive: Big Boi, Pharoahe Monch, Rah Digga, K.R.I.T., Lord Finesse, AZ and DMC are all locked in to give lectures, while Black Thought has agreed to be the 2024 commencement speaker at the graduation.
“Ten years from now, I’ll be 50,” says Factz, “and God willing, I’ll have three [physical] schools across the country. I’ll have one in the Bronx by 2027, then one here in Atlanta and one in L.A.” The former Freshman still performs shows and puts out his music independently, but says, “I want to have schools for hip-hop and lyricism. I want to be able to create jobs and opportunities for younger students and older people to be able to make money from. It’s important that the culture remains within with us. Because let me tell you something, if I didn’t do this, somebody else not of the culture would’ve done it.”